Episode 437: Human-Centric Marketing in the Age of AI with Amelie Marivain

Amelie Marivain  00:00

Think for me, there’s a bit of the who, the where, and the why and when I say that. I mean, you know, social, as in human relationships. How do you build trust? How do you build that rapport? And that’s the first for me, social Like, who do you talk to?

 Intro  00:17

Welcome to the Making Sales Social podcast featuring the top voices in sales, marketing, and business. Join Brynne Tillman and me, Bob Woods, as we each bring you the best tips and strategies our guests are teaching their clients so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling. Enjoy the show.

Brynne Tillman  00:43

Welcome back to Making Sales Social. I’m your host, Brynne Tillman, and I’m thrilled to introduce you to our guest today, Amelie Maravan. Amelie is an impact-driven business leader, currently serving as the founder of Late Bulb. She’s out of Singapore, which I think is truly amazing, and with over a decade of experience across APAC, the US, and Europe, she has a remarkable track record building and scaling marketing functions, driving multi-market growth, and leading teams through transformative change. Her ability to design human-centric systems that align markets, people, and meaning is truly inspirational. Amelie has worn many hats throughout her career, including her recent ventures into FinTech and Greek tech, and today, she’ll be sharing her insights on navigating the complexities of global markets and crafting impactful marketing strategies. Amelie, welcome to the show.

Amelie Marivain  01:49

Thank you so much.

Brynne Tillman  01:52

Thrilled to have you here. And before we jump into your genius, we ask all of our guests the same first question, which is, What does making sales social mean to you?

Amelie Marivain  02:03

Yes, I think for me, there’s a bit of the who, the where, and the why. And when I say that, I mean, you know, social as in human relationship. How do you build trust? How do you build that rapport? And that’s the first for me, social, like, who do you talk to, right? And then there’s the where. So that includes social, as in social media, find the channels where you can connect with, understand your prospect, and understand who you’re talking to. And then the third one is a bit of the why, or the how is the social, as, how am I helping you? How am I actually bringing value to you? And it’s not about yourself, it’s about you, know you and what you’re trying to accomplish. So I think that summarizes the making sales social. For me.

Brynne Tillman  02:57

I love that. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. So now let’s kind of jump into your journey. I mean, you have really worked in so many geographies and so many industries. You have such a diverse experience. How has that shaped your approach to marketing and leadership?

Amelie Marivain  03:20

I think one of the main, the main, actually benefits of that global and multicultural experience has been really trying to adapt and be flexible. And by adapting, I mean you need to understand your environment. You need to understand your context. You need to be able to talk like people talk around you, right? So it’s about the language people are using and and I’m not saying language as in English or another language. I’m really saying about, you know, if you’re talking to a certain type of person, you need to adapt your language. And I think that has shaped not only my marketing perspective, but also in my sales approach. How do I actually adapt different messages, different engagement with different people? And overall, I think it also makes you understand that your view, your perspective, or how sometimes you view your product, can be completely different of how someone else is going to actually perceive your product, the value you’re bringing.

Brynne Tillman  04:32

I could not agree more, even our messaging, right? So often we’ll say, Stop telling them what you want to tell them, and start talking about what they want to consume. So I love that. That’s awesome. Thank you. You know, one of the things I love about kind of what you talk about and how you’ve designed your programs is around human-centric systems, right? So I. Would love to hear what that actually means to you and how it translates to really effective marketing strategies.

Amelie Marivain  05:10

So one of the things that I think I’m going to use very recent example, because it’s very fitting, and it’s all about AI, right? And I think when we talk about AI, it’s almost like, how do we reclaim the human side of sales and marketing? Because the problem now is that we are trying to automate so much it becomes very transactional. It’s no longer about the people; it’s about the process or the technology. And so I think the role of AI is to enhance, enhance, and not replace the human, you know, inside the process. And if we don’t understand that, we are talking to someone behind you who knows that lead, or that prospect, however we want, to talk about it. I think one of the main, you know, the key ideas or key phrases or sentences that I talked about a lot in one of my previous jobs, was the person behind the persona. And we tend to forget, you know, of course, that person as a role as a title, they also have a role, and they influence the cells, but who they are behind and beyond that, right? And I think we tend to forget that, and so we automate a lot of think a lot of things, thinking, Okay, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s gonna make me more efficient, but it less, it makes us less human and less connected. So I think when we think about it, we need to be very careful about how our processes are helping or actually hindering us in connecting with people. So

Brynne Tillman  06:58

I love that. And you know, we talk about humanizing LinkedIn and AI, one of the things that we teach when it comes to prompt writing is that AI should be your interviewer, not your writer. So yeah, so, when you train AI and your prompts are, I want to create this in my voice, in my perspective. I’ve hired you, AI to interview me. Maybe you’re a Pulitzer Prize journalist, right, and help me ghost right in my in my voice. Do not research unless I ask you to. Do not like that, and really, that becomes the role of AI. And what I have found for myself and for our clients is that AI pulls out the best of us. It’s really good at helping us articulate our processes, our perspective, and we’re not relying on AI to come up with that. We’re relying on AI to bring it out of us.

Amelie Marivain  08:02

So I agree. Very suddenly, I was trying to write something, and I decided to use AI in the same way I asked. So it was ChatGPT, and I asked, interview me and give me 10, you know, 10 questions that you would need, you know, as a journalist, for me to answer, to understand me. Perfect, yeah. And then I was like, and continued asking why and why and why, until you get a yes to the real.

Brynne Tillman  08:31

Yeah. And the last will ask me one question at a time,

Amelie Marivain  08:35

correct, so you’re not confused, like

Brynne Tillman  08:38

30 questions. And then when you’re asking the why, it’s on one question. So, so, yeah, we are so aligned. I love that. That’s awesome. So talk to me a little bit about kind of the advances of technology and marketing from and what you’re seeing beyond AI, just what you’re the future of marketing, what does that look like, and how is that aligning to sales more and more now too?

Amelie Marivain  09:14

Yeah, I think that’s actually one of the things that I wanted to talk about, because it feels like there’s a more and more convergence between sales and marketing. And you know, at some point we were talking, and I don’t know if you’ve been part of that debate of SDR, do they belong to marketing, or do they belong to sales?

Brynne Tillman  09:39

And that’s my perspective on that. But

Amelie Marivain  09:42

Okay, and I think it’s a very interesting question. One of the for me, one of the main element, is, how do we make sure that when we think about marketing and sales? And, you know, GTMs and rev ups. How is that aligning to actually the actual buyer journey and not so much of a process? So do we need to build teams around some of our products, instead of building, you know, teams based on function internally? I think that’s very important. And when it comes to how we build that, I feel there is so much data that is available right now, and in B to B, more and more, we’re, you know, implementing some of the B to C models when it comes to being able to target, retarget, when it comes to segmentation. ABM has been, you know, doing the rounds for a long time now, but I think it’s very efficient. It still has a lot of merits. And yeah, and I think the lines are blurring more and more, because the responsibilities of each team are really to try and get, you know, that revenue in and help, you know, in doing that, help their customers get what they need. Right? I don’t, I’m kind of a big fan, and I don’t know if it’s right, I don’t know if it’s wrong, but of actually sales and marketing working, you know, in the same team.

Brynne Tillman  11:33

I love that in the same room, at least. Yeah, so I say that tongue in cheek now that everybody’s on Zoom. But yeah, no, I could not agree more. And I’ll tell you a couple of quick things. I think the SDRs should belong to sales, but I love it for those of you listening. She has a beautiful cat that just crossed the screen. That’s what I love, but the SDR, I do believe, belongs to sales. But the challenge that marketing needs to take on is, are the leads that are coming in, whether they’re from downloads or people literally raising their hands and saying, I want a demo? Are they aligned with the experience that person gets when they get on the call with the SDR? And that’s where I think the breakdown typically is if they’re not on the same team, if they’re working together. So you know, marketing will say, we’re bringing you all these leads. Why are you not converting them, and then the SDRs are saying, well, because their expectations are different than the conversation, and so that’s where that alignment is so important. So I love that you brought that up. That’s my philosophy around it.

Amelie Marivain  12:56

And I think there’s also, like, inbound, outbound, right, for SDRs. And the other thing is, how many of the marketing team? And you know when, when it comes to the sales team, if there’s no brand, if nobody knows you, you can be the best salesperson. It’s going to take you so far, right? So I think this is also when you know, it’s important to recognize that, obviously there’s a tactic, but there’s also the vision of the brand, and what you know, how much are you trying to influence your brand positioning, outside of just, you know, campaigns, and then on something you you mentioned, just For the SDR, I think the important part is also, when we think about the definition of leads between marketing and sales, is it aligned? Are we talking about the same thing, and, and if not, are we having those conversation and, and what is truly a lead and, and, can we define a lead with, you know, now, I think it’s what 70% of BTB buyers are doing their research, you know, of like, not offline, but don’t want any sales involved. And they don’t, you know, they’re all about digital research. So how do we ensure that, you know, if they are already 70% research and they kind of know what they want, we’re not, you know, putting them into a marketing automated campaigns, because we feel they’re not, you know, hot enough or warm enough, and then you’re like, well, actually, I want to talk to someone or the contrary, right? We actually put them in front of a sales rep when they’re not ready yet, ready?

Brynne Tillman  14:46

Yeah, oh yeah. I love that. So that timing is really important. And I think one of the things that you mentioned that is so critical is that they’re doing all this research. Is it our content that’s coming up? Is it our competitors that, like, I think one of the most important roles that marketing plays in the sales cycle is that when someone is googling their challenge, not the solution, right? When they’re Googling the challenge, we’re solving that, or we’re at least getting them to think differently about how to solve that, so that it leads back to our solution. And so I think that’s one of the areas often marketing does not handle or cover, because they’re really talking about features and benefits of our product and service versus, you know, here’s how to solve the challenge, and then if, if this isn’t enough, we’re happy to talk with you and guide you through that, even if we don’t work together. So you take all the pressure off, and you get a conversation with someone who is actively searching for how to resolve a challenge, not necessarily researching, what company do I hire to solve?

Amelie Marivain  16:05

And I think that Brynne, you know, it brings back to, how are you bringing value to the conversation, right? How am I helping you get what you need?

Brynne Tillman  16:20

So, how do you recommend brands stand out in a very crowded marketplace? What are some of the things when a brand comes to you and says, Amelie, we really need you to know our brand voice to be out there. How do you start, like, how do you differentiate them? Just kind of yeah.

Amelie Marivain  16:41

How do you start? So we look at the so from a very fresh start, right? We look at a brand in terms of its personality. What do they represent, you know, who do they want to be, if you were to meet that brand, who that person would be? Right? And so you get their value, you get their type of personality, and then you need to see if that actually fits the culture, because that’s something that you mentioned, right? What’s the experience you’re going to be going through as a customer expert, as a customer? 

So we the very, very start is really about the personality of the brand, and then you start building nowadays, I feel like each of the brands you’re working with, in general, would have champions inside the company. So if you look at LinkedIn, yes, having a corporate profile is very important. It’s key, right? But at the end of the day, the people who are going to follow your brand most of the time they’re going to follow it because they know someone at that specific company, and they want to know their point of view about something. It’s not about the brand, it’s about you know, the CEO, the CFO, whoever it is that they want to follow and that needs to be, you know, put forward. The second thing is, you know, we’re all evolving in terms of our attention span, the time we spend online. And if you’re not creating, you know, things that are different. And I think that I’m going to sound like a broken record, broken record, because everyone is saying that. But if you don’t create things that are different, even if it’s just, you know, in terms of video, how different can you be? 

And yes, you’re going to be, you know, in you’re going to be submerged by a sea of sameness, and nobody’s going to, you know, learn anything about you. So the thing that I haven’t seen yet, a lot of brands do is to be brands and really own, is that kind of bravery to be different. And when I say bravery, I mean, you know, sometimes going for more humor or more maybe even you know, dramatization, or I remember talking to a brand like three, four years ago about potentially starting a series on Tiktok about it people, and they usually turn on turn off the computer, and because their users were all IT people, and it’s, you know, of course, they’re not going to be the decision maker, but they’re going to influence, right? And if you want to start a bottom-up approach, then you start somewhere where people are, and all these IT people at the time, you know, were on TikTok because the age group was fitting. So it’s like, yes, of course you can be on LinkedIn and you can have a corporate profile. But is that going? To be reaching the people you want to be reaching.

Brynne Tillman  20:03

Yeah, hang out where your targeted audience is hanging out. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Just a question on just, I think this is a complex question, and you could break this down into different pieces. But I’m curious about organic search, SEO, and paid search. How are we coming up in, or how do we position ourselves to come up in AI and like chat, GPT? What are you seeing in that SEO world when it comes to marketing?

Amelie Marivain  20:40

So you may have seen a lot of titles saying SEO is dead now with AI, because people are actually searching for, you know, their different solution, or they’re actually looking at their own challenges on ChatGPT. And so there’s a whole lot of new players that are coming in and trying to do what SEO was on, you know, Google, but for AI, right? So for chat, GPT. So some are force feeding, some of the, basically the LLM, and some are, you know, really trying to understand how they work. Because right now, it’s not an open, correct, but if I had, you know, my, my brand, where I needed to be on, you know, I would definitely start there now. Because I think it’s like when SEO started, and everyone was like, Oh, maybe. And then you start realizing it was more than important. And when LinkedIn started and people weren’t realizing how that tool would become what it is today. And so I would say for anyone working in in paid and organic, you need to be looking up and actually start looking out for vendors that can help you, if not doing it now, understanding, understanding the value, understanding, you know what it’s going to mean when you’re ready, because we can’t avoid or ignore how much of a change is going to be. I have my co-founder right now. You know, when he was sick, very suddenly, the first thing he did was, you know, searching for his symptoms on chat, GPT, not on Google.

Brynne Tillman  22:45

I know, yeah, it’s where people are going. But even if you go to Google, Gemini is your first response every time. Yeah, right, like you’re getting an AI response even before you get your Google?

Amelie Marivain  23:00

Anything else, yes, so it’s a summary of all, which is great, by the way,

Brynne Tillman  23:06

agreed. I love it. So you have any tips on how people can start showing up in, in chat, in AI, do have you come up with any

Amelie Marivain  23:17

thoughts? Right? Not yet. Not yet. Yeah.

Brynne Tillman  23:21

How important is YouTube for marketing?

Amelie Marivain  23:24

Very important. Yeah, a little

Brynne Tillman  23:28

A bit about YouTube as we start to wrap this up.

Amelie Marivain  23:31

And sounds good, yeah. So it’s, I think it’s, it’s because so it’s a different, it’s, different format for different people. But what YouTube allows you to do is it allows you to have different potential formats. So you can have the short like any other platform, and you can have the long format because a lot of people. So if you think about a podcast, it’s a bit the same, right? You can have the seven-minute daily, but you can also have the five hours on a very specific topic, right? And it really depends on who you’re talking to and what you want to achieve. But videos are still one of the main content that people consume, and so if you’re going to make a video, no matter which channel you’re going to post it, having it on YouTube is going to be very important, because it’s also part of the Google ecosystem. So it also makes it searchable, and it allows you to then be, you know, shared more as well.

Brynne Tillman  24:38

So seeing YouTube videos come up in chat, GPT, in results, like I’m watching like I’m starting to see that, which I find fascinating. So the keywords on YouTube are going to matter even elsewhere. So, this has been fabulous. Is there. Any questions I should have asked you that I didn’t?

Amelie Marivain  25:04

Yes, I think the question was, was about, you know, in B to B cells with a large buying committee, how do you stay relevant? You

Brynne Tillman  25:18

know, please. That’s a great question, all yours.

Amelie Marivain  25:22

So I think the strategy here is really about thinking about multi-threading, and it’s not something new, but it’s really thinking about, you don’t only have one champion. You really need to understand, you know, what is going to be driving the relationship forward and engaging multiple voices, you know, with tailored and really relevant value. And I think this is one of the key elements where actually marketing can help a lot, but sales has a big responsibility in making sure they discover the entire buying committee, because they will always be hidden influencers and hidden buyers. So I think working hand in hand is really uncovering that entire buying committee to be able to multi-thread. The approach is really important.

Brynne Tillman  26:25

I love that. And I would assume we would want different types of content for each of the people in that committee. So, you know, like the CFO cares about very different things than the end user, maybe, right? So, yeah, so that’s an important role in marketing, I think, to create the content for everyone in that buying committee,

Amelie Marivain  26:46

yes. And then, you know, for the sales team to understand that, you know, their their engagement if they want to scale that, because it’s going to be impossible to personalize that scale with, you know, so many deals they have to oversee, but I think AI is probably here to help them being able to do that now that we have it. And, yeah,

Brynne Tillman  27:10

Well, this has been so much fun. I appreciate it. I think you’ve had some amazing insights that will really have an impact on the listeners. So for that, I’m very grateful to have people get a hold of you if they’d like to work with or just learn more.

Amelie Marivain  27:29

Yeah, they can contact me on LinkedIn, so they can find me under Emily Marivan, and then they can also have a look at my website, it’s lightbulb.com, same as light bulb, but instead of just an eye, it’s AI.

Brynne Tillman  27:49

I love it. Well, I thank you so much. This has been fantastic, and for all our listeners, when you’re out and about, don’t forget to make your sales social.

Outro  28:01

Thanks for watching, and join us again for more special guest instructors, bringing you marketing, sales training, and social selling strategies that will set you apart. Hit the subscribe button below to get the latest episodes from the Making Sales Social podcast, give this video a thumbs up, and comment down below on what you want to hear from us next. You can also listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Youtube Music, and Amazon Music. Visit our website, socialsaleslink.com for more information.