Episode 439: The HEART Framework: Turning Conversations into Conversions
In this episode of Making Sales Social, Brynne Tillman sits down with Tom Jackobs, creator of the Selling with Heart Framework, to explore how empathy and authenticity can transform your entire sales process. With over 30 years of experience, Tom shares how his HEART approach; Hugs, Engage, Ask, Referrals, and Testimonials, helps service professionals build genuine connections, earn trust, and double their sales without using high-pressure tactics. They dive into the power of empathy in sales, the art of engaging prospects through the What-Why-What-Why questioning technique, and how to turn satisfied clients into referral and testimonial champions. Plus, Tom reveals how his background in theater shaped his approach to scripting and delivering authentic, persuasive conversations.
View Transcript
Tom Jackobs (00:00)
I believe sales is a human thing that we do with each other — not to each other, but with each other. And that could mean selling an idea or selling something tangible.
Intro (00:13)
Welcome to the Making Sales Social podcast, featuring the top voices in sales, marketing, and business. Join Brynne Tillman and me, Bob Woods, as we each bring you the best tips and strategies our guests are teaching their clients — so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling. Enjoy the show!
Brynne Tillman (00:43)
Welcome back to Making Sales Social! I’m Brynne Tillman, and I’m very excited to introduce today’s guest.
Tom Jackobs is a seasoned entrepreneur and sales strategist known for creating the Selling with Heart framework — an innovative, empathy-based enrollment system. With over 30 years of experience, Tom has empowered thousands of service providers to enhance their communication and enrollment skills without resorting to high-pressure tactics.
That’s awesome. His unique blend of performance and purpose — stemming from his background as a theater-trained actor and licensed private pilot — makes this a fun conversation. His approach allows him to teach in a way that builds trust and integrity.
Today, we’re going to dive into his transformative methods and how they can reshape the sales landscape. Tom, welcome to the show!
Tom Jackobs (01:38)
Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here!
Brynne Tillman (01:42)
We’re thrilled to have you, and I know you’re going to bring so much value to our listeners. The first question we ask all our guests before we dive into your magic and genius is this — what does Making Sales Social mean to you?
Tom Jackobs (01:58)
That’s such a great question. I believe sales is a human thing that we do with each other — not to each other, but with each other. You could be selling an idea or selling something tangible. It could be B2B or B2C — it doesn’t matter. We’re still selling to other humans.
If we’re not being truly social with each other, then we’re not building that “know, like, and trust” factor, which is critical for making sales. So, to me, it’s a human experience — social selling in its truest form.
Brynne Tillman (02:35)
Let’s jump into your genius and what you’re incredible at — the HEART framework. Before we get into how amazing the framework is, what does it stand for? It’s an acronym, correct?
Tom Jackobs (02:50)
It is an acronym — H-E-A-R-T — and it outlines the exact framework for doubling your income or your sales in the next six months when you apply each of these steps.
It starts with H for Hugs — that’s rapport building, like a warm embrace.
E is Engage — that’s where you ask questions to understand your prospect’s problem.
A is Ask — but not you asking them to buy. It’s where they ask you to let them enroll in your program. It’s a little flip, especially if you’ve done the “Engage” step right.
R is Referral — something most people forget as part of the sales process. There’s a timing element here: you don’t want to ask right after the sale. Wait until you’ve had some experience with the client first.
Finally, T is Testimonial — again, something often overlooked, but it’s critical for building social proof.
Brynne Tillman (04:09)
I love that! It’s an amazing framework. How does it differ from a traditional sales approach?
Tom Jackobs (04:22)
I’ve read all the sales gurus — Grant Cardone, Jordan Belfort (the Wolf of Wall Street), Tony Robbins — and I’ve been to their seminars. To me, that’s traditional selling, which often focuses on convincing someone to buy your stuff.
There’s a time and place for that — like buying a car or a house, where you probably won’t have an ongoing relationship with the salesperson. But when you’re selling health, wellness, or other service-based products where relationships matter, that old-school “buy or die” mentality doesn’t work.
Selling with Heart is all about understanding that relationships are key. It’s not about pressure — it’s about helping people realize they have a problem and guiding them to see that it’s worth solving now, with your help.
Brynne Tillman (05:58)
I love that shift — it’s like you’re getting buy-in instead of trying to sell to them. You’re helping them want to buy from you.
Tom Jackobs (06:12)
Exactly! Nobody likes to be sold to, but everybody loves to buy.
Brynne Tillman (06:19)
(Chuckles) My Amazon cart agrees!
Tom Jackobs (06:21)
Mine too — I was just on Amazon earlier!
Brynne Tillman (06:25)
I love that. You mentioned empathy — how most salespeople lack it. Many go into a call thinking, “What can I sell them?” or “What’s my commission?” Instead of coming from an empathetic point of view. So, can empathy actually be taught?
Tom Jackobs (07:06)
Yes, absolutely — I believe empathy can be taught. Empathy is a process, and selling is a process. Selling with Heart is simply a process with empathy built in.
Any process is like a recipe — I’m not the best cook, but if I follow a recipe, I can make a great dish. It’s the same with selling. If you follow a “recipe” for building a real connection with someone, you don’t have to rely on manipulation or persuasion.
When you approach a sales conversation with a genuine desire to learn about the other person — their problems, goals, and challenges — that is empathy.
Brynne Tillman (08:09)
I love that. When we teach on LinkedIn, we always say: “Don’t look at them as leads. Look at them as human beings.” That completely aligns with what you’re saying. It’s not about targeting — it’s about having a conversation and asking, “Can I help solve their problem?” I love that approach.
Tom Jackobs (08:37)
Exactly. Instead of thinking, “How can I sell them something?” ask, “How can I help them solve their problem?” That’s the mindset shift salespeople need to make to truly sell with heart and empathy.
Brynne Tillman (08:50)
So here’s a challenge — I’m a salesperson. I’m naturally empathetic and curious, but I have a quota on my back. How do I balance leadership expectations if I’m not using the traditional funnel-based approach?
Tom Jackobs (09:36)
Great question. There’s really no conflict between hitting your numbers and selling with heart. Selling is still a numbers game — but when you approach it with empathy and curiosity, it actually makes sales easier.
You’re not pushing; you’re guiding. The prospect ends up selling themselves on solving their problem. By the time you finish asking great questions, they’ve often already decided if they want to buy.
At that point, it’s up to you not to mess it up by overselling or missing the opportunity to present the solution.
So yes, it’s still about tracking and performance. I even teach a concept called the Profits Piece — all about tracking and automating your sales process so you can spend more time talking to people and less time managing spreadsheets.
Brynne Tillman (11:04)
Do what you do best. I love that. I think that’s very powerful and important. So, moving from the Engage stage to the Ask stage — what are we doing to engage them and get them to say, “Hey, how can I work with you?”
Tom Jackobs (11:25)
In the Engage stage, there are really three parts. The first is asking questions. I use a simple framework I call the What–Why–What–Why — four key questions you need to ask:
- What is your goal? (Where do you want to be?)
- Why is that important to you? (This gets to the emotion behind the goal.)
- What have you tried in the past? (This helps reveal a possible cycle of failure.)
- Why now? (This creates urgency and eliminates the “I need to think about it” response.)
When you ask these, you’re creating internal tension — a healthy tension that motivates change.
The second part of Engage is the mirror back — this is where empathy really comes in. You simply repeat back what you heard. When done properly (or honestly, even just done at all, since most people skip it), the prospect feels truly heard and understood. They’ll often lean in and think, “Wow, this person actually listened to me.”
Then, when you move into your presentation, you show them exactly how your program solves their specific problems. This is where many salespeople miss the mark — they give a generic pitch instead of connecting the dots. People don’t always connect their own dots; that’s the salesperson’s job. A heart-centered salesperson acts as a guide, showing the link between the problem and the solution.
When done right, halfway through your presentation, they’re already reaching for their credit card, saying, “How do I pay you?”
Brynne Tillman (13:36)
From your lips to God’s ears — that’s amazing! I love that. Now, I want to touch on R — the referral piece. That’s a big part of what we teach on LinkedIn. You mentioned that few people ask for referrals. Often, they don’t know how or when, or if it’s even appropriate. How does the R in HEART encourage referrals?
Tom Jackobs (14:13)
I’ll start with a story — the wrong way to ask for a referral.
When I was about 20, I joined a Scandinavian Health Club, which was part of Bally’s. I was maybe 115 pounds, soaking wet — super skinny — and just wanted to work out. The salesperson took me through the whole sales process, and I ended up buying a lifetime membership, even though I was a broke college student.
Right after I signed the contract, he slid a sheet across the table with 10 blank spaces and said, “I bet you know 10 people who’d love to work out here.”
I thought, Are you kidding? You just put me through a grueling half-hour sales pitch — I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy!
That’s the wrong time to ask for referrals — immediately after the sale.
The right time is after they’ve experienced success with your program. For example, if it’s a wellness program and they’ve lost 20 pounds, emotions are high. You might say, “I bet your friends have been noticing your results.” When they agree, you can say, “That’s awesome! I’m going to give you three referral cards worth $100 each. Your friends will get $100 off their enrollment fee, and you’ll get $100 off your next bill.”
That works because you’re celebrating their results, giving them value, and helping their friends benefit too.
And by the way — that’s also the perfect time to ask for the T in HEART: the Testimonial.
Brynne Tillman (17:16)
Perfect segue — let’s go right into the T.
Tom Jackobs (17:19)
Right! When emotions are high and they’re getting great results, that’s when you ask. But never say, “Can you give me a testimonial?” Instead, say, “I’d love to share your story with others. What you’ve achieved could inspire people to make a change, just like you did. Can I ask you a few quick questions on video?”
Then ask three short questions and get a two-minute testimonial. Done!
Brynne Tillman (17:59)
I love that! And from a referral perspective, we often suggest going into a client’s LinkedIn connections and building a list of 10 people they could invite — for example, to a webinar. Even if they didn’t buy but found value, they can invite their connections next time.
And yes — if you get a video testimonial, repurpose the transcript as a LinkedIn post too!
This has been incredibly valuable. So, what question should I have asked you that I didn’t?
Tom Jackobs (18:53)
Good one! Probably: “How does my theater degree tie into sales?”
Brynne Tillman (19:03)
Great question — how does your theater degree align with your sales process or training?
Tom Jackobs (19:11)
I have a BFA in Theater and have done some acting and production work — not professionally, because, frankly, it doesn’t pay well, and I enjoy eating and living indoors!
But sales is all about scripting — having the right words and being able to deliver them naturally. That’s where acting comes in. Every actor has a script, but you don’t watch Leonardo DiCaprio and think, “He’s reading lines.” You believe him because he delivers with emotion and authenticity.
That’s what I teach in my Selling with Heart program. Once we’ve built the sales script, I help people perform it naturally — so it sounds conversational, not robotic.
Brynne Tillman (20:20)
I love that! And yes, Leo practices a lot — salespeople should too. Practice makes better!
Tom Jackobs (20:32)
Or as my mom always said, “Perfect practice makes pretty good.”
Brynne Tillman (20:37)
(Laughs) Smart mom — I love that line. So, I’m sure our listeners are thinking, “This Tom guy is awesome!” How can they get in touch with you?
Tom Jackobs (20:50)
I’m back on LinkedIn after being kicked off for a bit.
Brynne Tillman (20:58)
Automation?
Tom Jackobs (20:58)
Yep — that’ll do it every time. I had hired someone to handle outreach, and that was a mistake.
Brynne Tillman (21:09)
There are so many better ways!
Tom Jackobs (21:14)
Exactly. So, you can find me on LinkedIn — Tom Jackobs (J-A-C-K-O-B-S). I’m also active on Instagram and YouTube. On Instagram, I go by @impactpilot, and on YouTube, just search Tom Jackobs. I have lots of training there — and I’m offering your listeners free training on scripting using the What–Why–What–Why framework.
Brynne Tillman (21:47)
I love that! We’ll include it in the show notes. It’s go.tomjackobs.com/script-training. Thank you, my friend — I’ve so enjoyed this conversation.
Tom Jackobs (22:05)
Same here! I can’t believe how quickly it went by.
Brynne Tillman (22:10)
It flew! To all our listeners — when you’re out and about, don’t forget to make your sales social.
Outro (22:16)
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