Episode 451: The Connection Economy: Why Human Motivation Outranks the Hard Sell

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 00:00
One of the core drivers of human beingness—remember the old Maslow Pyramid? Right at the very bottom, there was survival, food, water, all of that. That’s not it. We are wired for connection. I always tell my clients that we transform in relationship.

Intro 00:27
Welcome to the Making Sales Social Podcast, featuring the top voices in sales, marketing, and business. Join Brynne Tillman and me, Bob Woods, as we each bring you the best tips and strategies our guests are teaching their clients so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling. Enjoy the show. Natasha Todorovic-Cowan, it’s great to have you here today.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 00:57
It is so awesome to be here with you, Bob. I appreciate it.

Bob Woods 01:01
Appreciate it. For more than 25 years, Natasha has been helping leaders unravel the hidden human dynamics that derail change, culture, sales, performance—all that stuff. She’s the CEO of Spiral Dynamics and author of Making Change Work. We’re going to dive into what really motivates people today, how leaders can better guide their teams, and how sales pros can thrive in today’s connection economy—which I love, that phrase. That’s a heck of an agenda. Natasha, let’s get right to it. Welcome to the Social Sales Link Virtual Studios and the Making Sales Social Podcast. Super excited to be here.

It’s funny because I literally just had this happen yesterday, and I’m surprised it’s still around. We’ve seen sales evolve from that hard-sell, door-to-door magazine subscription model—or in my case, internet providers, which I closed the door in their face because we had just switched providers. From that type of sale to today’s connection economy, when it comes to motivation and connection, what do you think sales leaders often misunderstand about that? Because as evidenced by yesterday, it’s still out there. It should really be more about connections, at least in your opinion.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 02:32
One of the core drivers of human beingness—remember the old Maslow Pyramid? At the very bottom, there was survival, food, water, all of that. That’s not it. We are wired for connection. I always tell my clients that we transform in relationship. Some people are more relationally oriented; some are more transactionally oriented. But if you take a prisoner placed in solitary confinement, within three days, their brain shows traumatic injury. That shows how core and powerful relating is.

Our best experiences usually involve other human beings; our worst experiences usually involve other human beings. In a world of internet and digital everything, this connection piece is more important than ever.

Bob Woods 03:49
Absolutely. You mentioned the internet and Zoom. Do you think electronic connections—like what we’re doing now on Zoom, where we’re nowhere near each other—can build just as much connection? Or is it better one-to-one in the same room?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 04:23
Well, it’s better than solitary confinement, right? Without a doubt. Research is mixed. People who spend a lot of time online often have shorter attention spans—they leap over the surface and don’t dig deeper. At the same time, other regions of the brain are being built.

Face-to-face interaction, heart to heart, sound to sound, ear to voice—especially eating together—creates chemicals that bond people. Sitting and eating together is more powerful than Zoom. But conversations like this still give us a feel for one another. There are gradations in connection. Some people even bond with AI as if it’s a real person. We’re interesting as human beings.

Bob Woods 06:08
Absolutely. The eating example is great. Most of my interactions are over Zoom, so I really value personal time, even if it’s not business-related. Sharing activities like working out or playing pickleball can strengthen connections that carry back into business relationships. Would you agree?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 07:05
Oh, absolutely. I prefer working with people—it makes life joyful. Joy cannot be experienced alone. It happens in relationship, sharing experiences. Some people are fine with transactional relationships, but I want to like the people I work with. That excitement and connection evolve my capacity to show up fully.

Bob Woods 08:00
Couldn’t agree more. In your work, you talk about aligning with who people really are. How can salespeople move beyond scripts, pitches, and campaigns to create authentic alignment with prospects?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 08:45
People are more savvy than ever—they can sense if someone wants the highest and best for them. From a developmental perspective, humans are evolving. Most salespeople focus on promoting their product. But if you align your product, service, or organization with a prospect’s innate growth, you’re supporting their next iteration. Everyone has goals, dreams, and things they’re working toward. When you help them achieve those dreams, you’re no longer selling—you’re a partner in evolution.

Bob Woods 10:42
That ties directly into the connection economy. How would you define it and its application to sales?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 11:03
Connection is both emotional and intellectual. Emotionally, mirror neurons let us vibe—happy, I’m happy; sad, I’m sad. Intellectually, we expand one another’s thinking.

Bob Woods 11:58
How does that translate to the “economy” part?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 12:11
Relationships drive business. When I vibe with someone, I’ll do business with them—even if the products are similar, I may spend more. I was a buyer running a manufacturing company. Salespeople who had my back, who I trusted to solve problems, got my business. That trust is the economy.

Bob Woods 13:14
You can tell the difference between someone transactional and someone genuinely making a connection.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 13:44
Exactly. Closing the deal because it’s truly good for the other person—knowing them—makes all the difference.

Bob Woods 13:58
You really take things deeper to ensure it’s truly for them.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 14:08
Absolutely.

Bob Woods 14:12
Earlier, you mentioned high performers psychologically grappling with customers. How does a salesperson navigate that? Some shy away, which can be a lost opportunity.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 15:24
It’s about understanding motivational flows. Humans exist in social systems, and the way they relate gives clues. Some are motivated by submission to authority—they judge through their boss’s eyes. Others thrive on making their own imprint—they’re motivated by status. Some are anti-competitive, motivated by peer health, security, and connection. Salespeople need to sell into a relationship system, understanding these flows and ripple effects.

Bob Woods 17:41
So the question I have percolating in my mind—and it’s not fully formed yet—is, which of those three is easier to deal with, more difficult, and how do you deal with them? It’s not a great question, but it sparked something in my mind.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 18:13
Obviously, the easiest to deal with is the one who reports to their boss. If the boss says, “Go reach out to this person,” it’s a simple sale. If someone is poking around, you want to get their boss in the room with them. That makes the sale simpler.

The more complicated situation is when you have five, six, or more people making a decision. You have to get buy-in from all of them.

Bob Woods 19:00
Which is more common nowadays, especially in B2B sales.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 19:03
Exactly. It gives you a spectrum. If you’re appealing to an ego, once you get out of yourself and past experiences, and understand someone with an individualistic internal locus of control—meaning they make their own decisions and you are their guide—it’s easier to work with them once they clarify what they want.

Bob Woods 19:43
Yeah, that’s where communication and relationship building comes in.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 20:08
Exactly. We had this conversation before. If you want, I can walk through an example that stayed with me.

Bob Woods 20:28
Yes, let’s do that.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 20:37
A credit union’s senior executives designed a bonus package for tellers to raise new accounts. They were excited about boats, golf clubs, and memberships—but the tellers didn’t care about those. Our diagnostics showed that tellers were motivated by belonging—they wanted to feel part of the family.

The rollout changed. Instead of dangling carrots, the CEO met with small groups of 15–25 tellers, telling them what they meant to the company and what he hoped to achieve. Authority was presented as parental, nurturing, warm, and welcoming.

By the end, new accounts rose more than 20%, actually closer to 70%, because they aligned with the tellers’ natural motivational flows.

Bob Woods 22:52
Those natural motivational flows probably expanded the tellers’ relationships, and it snowballed from there.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 23:08
Exactly. Because we belong, the community belongs, which brought more of the community in than ever before.

Bob Woods 23:18
I’m curious about your process. How do you surface something like that in a company?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 23:49
We use something called Mirror Management. People lead according to their filters, and it’s hard to get out of those filters. We run Spiral Dynamics diagnostics to reveal leadership flows, team dynamics, and culture.

This lets us predict what will or won’t work before strategies are rolled out. No good strategy survives culture if it isn’t aligned with the people’s identities and relationships.

Bob Woods 25:11
It helps if management is open to change. What happens when management isn’t receptive?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 25:30
Our approach is educational. We start with analysis. Often, when people say, “I have this problem,” they’ve self-diagnosed, which is usually close to the core issue. We gather data, run diagnostics, and present findings. Our validated psychometrics measure change readiness, flexibility, culture, leadership fit, and developmental stage.

Taking a human-centered approach may take longer initially, but it prevents pushback and saves time, energy, and relationships compared to a misaligned strategy.

Bob Woods 27:52
That’s profound. Companies that do this right can transform results. Top-down decision-making alone would have left tellers competing for things they didn’t care about.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 28:33
Exactly. They shifted top-down to align with existing flows. It wasn’t naturally amenable to traditional top-down methods, but it worked for them.

Bob Woods 29:01
So management, listen to your people and culture. Bring in experts like Natasha—but check your egos. How much of these challenges is ego?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 29:18
A lot is often attributed to ego, but it’s really habit and entrenched beliefs. People are stuck in what they think is true and fear being wrong.

Bob Woods 30:09
That ties into the “we’ve always done it this way” mentality.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 30:16
Exactly. The world and people are changing. What was true a year ago isn’t true today. Leaders must recognize how their people have evolved. I remember being sent to my room by my dad at age 30—it reminded me that relationships grow and require recognition of who people are today.

Bob Woods 31:10
Yeah, that’s it. I think you got it. That brings me to my next question—we’re going to shift gears a bit to talk about your book, Making Change Work. This is your stage, your microphone. Tell me about it.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 31:30
Yes. Seventy percent of change efforts fail, and 67 to 87 percent of mergers and acquisitions fail. What’s the common denominator? Culture. People. If we want change to work, we need to understand our people. Making Change Work is a people-focused approach to ensure organizational leaders can implement digital transformations and M&As successfully. Most companies figure out the people part too late, and 85 percent of CEOs later wish they had focused on people first.

Bob Woods 32:29
What will people take away from your book?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 32:36
A lot. I outline the five biggest mistakes leaders make. One is self-diagnosis: like going to a doctor and saying, “Doc, I have a headache. It’s a brain tumor—take it out.” Many senior leaders do this with consultants—they say, “This is the problem, fix it,” and the problem persists.

The book walks through the five pitfalls, plus case studies. One client won Best Place to Work in Europe three years in a row due to an incredible culture. There’s a warning story too: culture isn’t automatic; it must be nurtured like a plant.

Bob Woods 34:16
Like a plant you love and tend.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 34:20
Exactly. There’s a chapter on hard conversations, our framework, and how change happens with human beings. The book builds up to an eight-step strategy at the end—an application guide for leaders who want to make change work.

Bob Woods 35:14
That’s very important, especially given the shifts in sales. Some people adapt well, but others don’t, and companies lose good people because they cling to old beliefs.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 35:53
In the book, I unpack the Kodak example and share research on the connection economy—why it’s critical and what changes are happening.

Bob Woods 36:10
That’s fascinating.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 36:14
It’s a massive revolution.

Bob Woods 36:18
Absolutely. Now, if a listener wants this book, they might look on Amazon and not find it. You made a deliberate choice not to list it there. Why, and who do you want most reading it?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 36:37
I want senior leaders taking teams and organizations through change to read it. Spiral Dynamics has a bizarre following—it’s often misunderstood as a spiritual pathway. Listing the book on Amazon invites irrelevant attention, so I wanted to target it intentionally. This book is education, tools, and insights for leaders. It’s about being a good fit for their goals, organization, and the next iteration of what their organization is becoming.

Bob Woods 38:28
You’re priming the relationship, making sure the right people engage. That’s very smart. We’ll link to the book in the show notes, for organizational leaders only.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 39:15
Thank you.

Bob Woods 39:19
Now, crystal ball time. Let’s talk about the future of sales and the connection economy. How will this shape sales and leadership in the next five years?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 39:41
Many salespeople will struggle to adjust because they are independent and skilled at working alone—they rarely ask for help. Developmentally, we’re moving to collaborative, feedback-oriented approaches aligned systemically, relationally, and organizationally to goals. Salespeople need to be equal partners. Individualists will still succeed, but the collaborative, team-oriented approach will shift how sales operates.

Bob Woods 41:14
That leads into AI, which is huge and here to stay. AI can make people more independent. How does AI fit into this collaborative framework? Can it support team-based approaches rather than the lone-wolf model?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 42:19
I’ll reveal something. I’m in California, trying to solve a housing crisis. I’m in a neighborhood of one-story cottages from the 1920s, confronting a builder who wants to build in a flood hazard, earthquake, and liquefaction area—meaning the ground can sink in an earthquake. I didn’t know land use three weeks ago, so I used AI to understand the laws and prepare a professional appeal to the city council.

It was me and AI, but here’s the thing: when the information pool is clean—like land use, mostly legal texts—it gives good data. But I didn’t know if it was accurate. For example, when I ran Spiral Dynamics through AI, it was nonsense. I almost dismissed it. So I validated it: I talked with my architect, a lawyer, a city planner, and my neighbors. That accelerated our understanding, honed the issues, and yesterday I was sitting with the mayor asking what I did right or wrong. He said it was a heck of a lot better than he expected.

It worked because I had people help interpret the AI. The key isn’t blindly trusting AI; it’s staying open and bringing in expertise. Learning happened in the conversations, AI provided information, and relationships were cemented.

Bob Woods 45:28
That’s helpful. Even though it wasn’t sales, you used a team approach. The team shaped AI’s input into something impactful—something the mayor acknowledged. AI can accelerate information, but people are still essential.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 46:23
Exactly. It helps with homework. If the buyer knows their company, goals, and values, AI can educate, but AI can’t build relationships or trust.

Bob Woods 46:50
Right. Many salespeople misuse AI—they try to substitute it for relationships, and it doesn’t work.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 47:12
This was like a sale to get seven city council members’ votes. Everyone thought I’d lose. Most votes were seven-zero historically; this appeal was four-three.

Bob Woods 47:32
Wow. That’s impressive.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 47:44
They didn’t want to get sued by the developer. The attorney even threatened $1.3 million like a neighboring city. So getting three votes from pro-housing members against development was a big sale.

Bob Woods 48:29
Powerful example. To wrap up, what’s one immediate thing our audience can do to start making change work in sales, conversations, and leadership?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 48:56
Forget yourself—forget your experience, forget who you are. Lean in, listen to what your client is saying and feeling, and address that first. When there’s room, bring in your perspective, but make the first piece 100% about them.

Bob Woods 49:31
That aligns with one of my phrases: stop talking about how you help people, just help people.

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 49:45
Exactly. Figure out how to help them—and help them.

Bob Woods 49:49
Where can folks get in touch with you?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 49:53
LinkedIn: Natasha Todorovic-Cowan. Email: natasha@spiraldynamics.org. Happy to connect and have conversations.

Bob Woods 50:09
Can they get the book directly from your website?

Natasha Todorovic-Cowan 50:16
No, it’s hidden. Access through your notes, Bob.

Bob Woods 50:22
Pressure is on.

Bob Woods 50:29
With that, global change strategist, Spiral Dynamics leader, and author of the well-hidden Making Change Work, Natasha Todorovic-Cowan, thanks so much for joining us in the Social Sales Link Virtual Studios for this episode of Making Sales Social.

Outro 50:52
Thank you for streaming this episode of Making Sales Social. Remember, make your sales social every week. Join us for more guest instructors bringing marketing, sales training, and social selling strategies. Subscribe to get the latest episodes on  Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Youtube Music, and Amazon Music. Visit our website, socialsaleslink.com, for more information.