Episode 482: Making SEAMless Sales Social: Aligning Sales, Pre-Sales, and Client Success for Higher Win Rates

Art Fromm 00:00
Posting something that’s going to be helpful, and then they get to know you in terms of what you’re talking about and how it can help them. If there’s a connection, that can turn into a potential relationship.

Bob Woods 00:10
Welcome to the Making Sales Social podcast, featuring the top voices in sales, marketing, and business. Join Brynne Tillman, Stan Robinson Jr., and me, Bob Woods, as we each bring you the best tips and strategies our guests are teaching and using, so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling. Welcome to the show.

Brynne Tillman 00:33
Welcome back to Making Sales Social. I’m Brynne Tillman, and today’s guest has transformed how sales teams work from the first conversation through renewal. Art Fromm brings a rare mix of engineering, software, pre-sales, sales leadership, and sales enablement experience. His work has helped organizations achieve measurable results, including major increases in bookings, win rate, and overall client success.

Art founded Team Sales Development in 2009 and has built a portfolio of consultative selling solutions that have helped sales engineers and account managers operate as one unified team. His new book, Making SEAMless Sales, digs into the challenges between sales and pre-sales roles and lays out practical paths for teams to collaborate at a much higher level. It is a powerful blueprint for anyone responsible for driving strategic deals and improving the customer experience.

Art, I am excited to have you here today. Welcome to the show.

Art Fromm 01:33
Thank you very much. Great to be here, and to all of you who are joining or watching, I appreciate the time. I’m very excited to jump into your genius because we had a wonderful conversation, and when I did a deeper dive into what you do, it’s really transformational. I’m excited to share it with the audience. But before we jump into that, we ask all of our guests the same first question: What does Making Sales Social mean to you?

Art Fromm 02:13
Well, it’s a couple of things. One angle is turning people who don’t know you into advocates by earning their trust through helpful posts. In other words, posting something useful allows people to get to know you, understand what you’re talking about, and see how it can help them. If there’s a connection, that can turn into a relationship, which can then lead to sales. The whole point is to have the relationship first—it isn’t just about pushing your stuff.

Another angle is making the interaction human. Even though LinkedIn and other platforms are digital, the human element can transcend that, showing your real intentions. It’s about offering perspectives and getting perspectives, not just pitching.

A third part is having others who can vouch for you or refer you. That’s how I’ve done most of my business for the last 16 years—through referrals. People vouch for you because they’ve experienced the value you bring.

One thing I realized is that social selling is really the new SDR or BDR in the sales process. Their purpose is to find prospects, understand what they’re doing, and get them interested in a solution. Social selling is a way to build the pipeline at the beginning of the process.

Brynne Tillman 04:17
Yes, in the way account managers are selling today—some handle the full process from first conversation to close, to referrals, to the next deal. LinkedIn and social platforms are excellent ways to map out prospects and identify who can help you get there. I love that answer.

I want to jump into your book because Making SEAMless Sales tackles long-standing gaps between sales and pre-sales. I really love this. What was the moment you realized this disconnect was costing organizations real revenue, and what made you decide it was time to write this book?

Art Fromm 05:06
Since I had been in all those roles—and even before that, as a customer—I wasn’t consciously aware of some of those gaps. Eventually, when I assumed those roles, the gaps became clear. As a customer, I had a few great relationships where interactions were seamless: the salesperson would move in and out, the technical person would move in and out. Other relationships weren’t seamless. I could feel it in my gut but didn’t know exactly what it was.

When I started as a pre-sales engineer, back when it was called Application Engineer, I noticed certain salespeople I loved working with—they considered me an equal, briefed me and others like we were all part of the same team. Others were pushy and demanding.

Moving into sales enablement over the last 25 years, it hit home. I was enabling and training both pre-sales and sales teams. I realized that often, training is siloed: either pre-sales or sales. When both attend a workshop together, it’s much more effective.

With my experience in both roles, I wanted the book to provide equal opportunity for sales engineers and account managers to understand each other and collaborate seamlessly. There’s even a worksheet in the book that teams can apply to real opportunities. That was the genesis of the book and my ongoing mission—to focus on collaboration between pre-sales and sales.

Brynne Tillman 08:28
I love that. We hear a lot about sales and marketing silos, but not about sales and pre-sales silos. For the audience, can you talk about the role of pre-sales, the role of sales, and where the gaps typically exist?

Art Fromm 09:02
Sure. This mainly applies to B2B sales, particularly complex sales—software, hardware, telecommunications, security solutions, SaaS, and anything with a consumption model. Large enterprise deals usually require someone with technical expertise to understand detailed client needs and translate them into a solution. At the same time, this must translate into business value because solutions alone don’t guarantee a sale.

Generally, in an organizational pyramid with C-level at the top, managers in the middle, and other support functions at the bottom, the sales engineer (pre-sales person) works with middle to lower levels because of their technical expertise. The salesperson manages commercial and executive-level relationships.

Key overlap exists in the middle, where collaboration is crucial to present a unified story from technical details to high-level business outcomes.

Silos—both departmental and cognitive—often interfere. Sales engineers are typically more analytical, while salespeople tend to be more global and big-picture oriented. Misalignments occur: salespeople may fear SEs will oversell or focus on features; SEs may feel sales hasn’t fully qualified the opportunity. Proper discovery and collaboration cover all aspects of the pyramid and ensure the message aligns with client needs.

In practice, the salesperson drives the deal forward, while the SE ensures the technical solution is correct. A key point in the book: the salesperson is responsible for the business close, the SE for the technical close. Technical wins alone aren’t enough—they need to connect to business outcomes. Continuous engagement with equal but distinct roles ensures a seamless process.

Brynne Tillman 14:48
Part of the problem is the handoff. How important is it that both roles report to the same leader? Many organizations separate them. How do you ensure they work together toward the same goal?

Art Fromm 15:30
Historically, pre-sales and sales had separate reporting because of differences in needs and wiring. Today, first-line sales and pre-sales management need to work together to ensure a smooth handoff. Deal reviews, funnel calls, and communication between managers help, but individual collaboration is also critical.

In some organizations, especially in Europe, both roles roll up to a country manager. That’s a good start, but it doesn’t automatically ensure seamless collaboration. Even if reporting is separate, pre-sales should be matrixed into sales to focus on seamless execution. This approach also extends to client success in SaaS and consumption models, where the sale is just the beginning.

Brynne Tillman 17:39
That’s great. Adoption is probably the biggest challenge. Once you’ve got that sale, you could have the best solution in the world, but if people aren’t using it, it doesn’t matter. We’re seeing this all the time. I work with teams that have purchased Sales Navigator, and they’re barely using it. What do you think Client Success folks can do to get the best adoption of their product once the sale is made?

Art Fromm 18:30
I advocate for a continuous process, which is a theme in my book. When I was doing research, I explored the buying process and the sales stages. Most sales stages are shown linearly, ending at the sale, sometimes with “measure results” tacked on. Occasionally, sales stages are shown in a circle, but usually as a reminder for salespeople to check back in.

Buying processes are almost always shown as a straight line with the exit point being the sale, but they should include implementation and success as well. The goal should be driven by the buyer. If the buyer’s goal is a successful implementation, then Client Success is central. Success involves both the client achieving their goals and Client Success being set up to succeed.

Handoffs between sales and pre-sales can make sense, but often it’s “over the wall.” Client Success is brought in at the end with little context, or sometimes just at renewal time. I advocate for integrating Client Success earlier in the cycle, making the process a continuum rather than a handoff. Some companies even have sales engineers continue into Client Success, but ideally, Client Success should be involved earlier to ensure the client is set up for success from the start.

Brynne Tillman 21:50
I love that. We call it adoption enablement. I love the idea of a full cycle and that Client Success is part of the journey even before the contract is signed.

Art Fromm 22:28
Exactly. Often, all the insights gained from the early stages are not captured properly or are stuck in the CRM, which Client Success may not even reference. Important information—like discovery, qualification, and decision-maker details—can be lost. If Client Success knows the criteria and context, they can implement successfully instead of starting over with the same questions.

Brynne Tillman 23:26
That’s fantastic. I want to talk about your methodology, since you’ve embedded it directly into platforms like Microsoft Dynamics and Salesforce. It’s amazing how you’ve made this implementable in a CRM. How do sellers work with it day to day, and why is the CRM connection so critical?

Art Fromm 24:23
CRM is often a four-letter word. Salespeople see it as forced reporting for management. Data gets rushed, incomplete, or inaccurate, which is why it has a bad reputation. My methodology flips this on its head.

I created the Sales Opportunity Snapshot, highlighted in the book. It starts with proper discovery and qualification, using nine key criteria that cover almost every methodology. It’s graphical, clean, and easy for salespeople to use. Clients using it for 20 years found their win rate increased from 58% to 74% in the first two years.

It includes qualification, discovery, competitive strategy—not just against named competitors, but also against doing nothing—and an influence map showing key stakeholders and their interactions. Now all of this is integrated into the CRM, giving better funnel management, predictability, and visibility for Client Success and sales engineers.

Brynne Tillman 28:07
For listeners, MEDIC is Metrics, Economic Buyer, Decision Criteria, Decision Process, Identify Pain, and Champion.

Art Fromm 28:20
Originally, it was just MEDIC with Decision Process as the main focus.

Brynne Tillman 28:28
Do you find MEDIC still relevant, or is something missing?

Art Fromm 28:42
It works if used properly, but often it’s just a checklist. Proper use makes a real difference in deal size and win rates. For example, the Economic Buyer concept is often overloaded. We separate it into job title, formal and informal role, and whether they are for or against us. If applied correctly in the CRM, MEDIC becomes a powerful, objective, and testable tool—not just a checklist.

Brynne Tillman 29:48
Exactly. MEDIC helps internally, but it doesn’t necessarily engage buyers. It can feel dehumanizing if used only as a process.

Art Fromm 30:09
Right, but it can do both discovery and qualification. Every touch should capture what the client is doing. Relationships come first, even if briefly, and discovery continues with pre-sales and sales. Proper qualification ensures we focus on clients whose needs align with what we can help with.

Brynne Tillman 31:07
I love that perspective. This has been amazing, but we should start wrapping up. Is there a question I should have asked you?

Art Fromm 31:25
We covered most of it. The book offers examples and can be a launching point for workshops. I encourage people to get the book not just for themselves but also for their partners and work on real opportunities together. There’s a complimentary worksheet to use for this.

Brynne Tillman 32:17
Sounds like a great internal book club opportunity.

Art Fromm 32:23
Yes, someone contacted me to do exactly that.

Brynne Tillman 32:27
How can people get in touch with you?

Art Fromm 32:31
LinkedIn is best: Art Fromm (two M’s). My website has articles, events, podcasts, and webinars. I also run workshops and book clubs—feel free to reach out there.

Brynne Tillman 33:17
Thank you so much, Art. To our listeners, don’t forget to make your sales social.

Art Fromm 33:36
Making SEAMless Sales Social.

Brynne Tillman 33:38
Yes, that’s it. Bye, everyone.

Art Fromm 33:43
Thanks, Brynne.

Bob Woods 33:45
Thanks for watching. Join us again for more on marketing, sales, training, and social selling strategies. Subscribe for the latest episodes from the Making Sales Social podcast, give this video a thumbs up, and comment on what you want to hear. You can also listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and other platforms. Visit our website, socialsaleslink.com, for more information.