Episode 302: Navigating the Seller’s Journey

Intro

Welcome to the Making Sales Social podcast featuring the top voices in sales, marketing, and business. Join Brynne Tillman and me, Bob Woods, as we each bring you the best tips and strategies our guests are teaching their clients so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling. Enjoy the show.

0:01:18 – (Brynne Tillman): Welcome back to Making Sales Social. I have a really great guest today, Richard Harris trademarked, and we’re going to ask him a little bit about that. But he is the number one Amazon best-selling author of the seller’s journey, your guidebook to closing more deals with neat selling. So we’re going to talk to Richard a little bit about that today, and I’ve got some questions. So, Richard, welcome to the show.

0:01:48 – (Richard Harris): Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

0:01:51 – (Brynne Tillman): Oh, I’m thrilled. I’m prepared with some really deep-dive questions around the book and around some sales questions around pipeline and revenue and sales cycles. So before we jump into all of that fun stuff, I ask all of my guests one question, which is, what does Making Sales Social mean to you?

0:02:16 – (Richard Harris): It means giving in a social way more than you are taking. It’s like making more deposits in the bank than you do withdrawals.

0:02:26 – (Brynne Tillman): I love that. Simple, yet very compelling. So, you know, I am really excited about this book. You know, the seller’s journey. We hear all about the buyer’s journey, right? Everywhere we turn, people are talking about the buyer’s journey. So first, tell us a little bit about why you wrote a book on the seller’s journey.

0:02:50 – (Richard Harris): So the whole premise, and believe me, I was the same way, believing in this buyer’s journey and all this stuff. And I finally realized there’s no such thing as a buyer’s journey. It’s just some fancy buzzword we’ve all been repeating. No buyer’s journey exists. The only thing that exists is the buyer’s experience. And as every human being is a consumer, we all know what that means. It’s about the experience that you’re having.

0:03:18 – (Richard Harris): We go to the same places because of the trusted experience or the pricing experience or something like that. It has nothing to do with any buyer’s journey. So the only journey that exists is the seller’s journey, which is created in a business world, often by sales and marketing. Right. That’s what I’m talking about. So there’s no such thing as a buyer’s journey, in my opinion.

0:03:45 – (Brynne Tillman): Interesting. So it’s the seller is the sherpa of the journey.

0:03:51 – (Richard Harris): Yes. Yes. And it’s our journey. It’s like, to use your analogy, right? Like, the Sherpa knows the best way to the top of Mount Everest, not just because it’s been climbed before, but for decades and decades and eons. And eons. The sherpas already knew it. Right. So they were trying to provide the safest and best experience for the climbers. So Sherpa is a great way to look at it.

0:04:15 – (Brynne Tillman): Oh, good. I’m so glad I got it, which I love. So we talk a lot about pipeline and sales efficiency inside of the sales or the. The seller’s journey.

0:04:30 – (Richard Harris): Right.

0:04:30 – (Brynne Tillman): But let’s dive a little deep about, like, describe a sales strategy that you’ve implemented that has increased revenue or just conceptually, what’s something that you made a shift in that increases revenue?

0:04:47 – (Richard Harris): So one of the things that I make a shift in is around qualifying to authority. Right. Like, I think we all know it’s a consensus. Right. And there’s always a committee, and particularly at the end of every first meeting or second meeting, we already know what’s going to happen. They’re going to take it back to their team. So I don’t care who the decision maker is early on. So I would turn around at the end of a meeting. Let’s say it’s me and you, Brynne, and I’ll say, hey, Brynne, this has been a great conversation.

0:05:18 – (Richard Harris): I’m willing to bet when we get off this ball, you’re going to take this back to your team. Curious. Who’s the most skeptical person on the team when you bring ideas like this to the team? And what are they typically skeptical about? Because I’m not getting to any decision-maker until I get through the skeptic.

0:05:38 – (Brynne Tillman): I love that.

0:05:39 – (Richard Harris): And so sometimes the skeptic is the decision maker. But they would have never told you if you said who’s the decision maker? Because they know to button up. But when you say who’s the skeptic? They know. So that’s been one strategy that I’ve really been pushing hard lately, because it’s all about getting access to authority, not getting to authority.

0:06:02 – (Brynne Tillman): I love that. All right, I’m going to the next one, which I think we’ll build a little bit about this. But you talk about pipeline volume and velocity, so I understand velocity, I guess speed to business. Right?

0:06:21 – (Richard Harris): Right, of course.

0:06:22 – (Brynne Tillman): So talk about how you align volume appropriately and speed to market. And I’ll just preface this question as we talk about slowing it down. Right. So we talk about slowing down the process to speed up the outcome. Right? Yes, slow it down. But you talk a lot about pipeline volume and velocity. So share your thoughts around that.

0:06:52 – (Richard Harris): Yeah, so there’s a couple of them. So one by volume, what I mean is we always have a sales goal and we always say, oh, I need, which is a terrible number. Three x, my number to get to my goal, which is never accurate. Right. Just go for ten x. If you get to ten x, you’re not going to have a problem. Right. What we don’t talk about, though is, well, how much pipeline does that need to grow each week?

0:07:15 – (Richard Harris): How much net new pipeline do I need to have each week, each month, each quarter to get to whatever your goals are? So that’s what I’m talking about when I talk about the growth of your pipeline and paying attention to that, to me is far more interesting than a number of dials or top time. I’m not saying you can’t have those things as a backup. Right. That the pipeline’s not growing. Well, that’s where you’re going to look.

0:07:40 – (Richard Harris): But if we see this pipeline growth, then that’s helpful. Also, if we see our pipeline growing, we could measure that against dial because maybe to your point, if we slow down the output to make it better quality, does the input of new pipeline growth increase? Right. And then to your point about velocity, people often misunderstand that we hear the word velocity and we think faster. Well, and I agree 100% with you, sometimes you slow down the velocity.

0:08:14 – (Richard Harris): Right. So it’s almost like, let’s talk about pipeline growth and throttling velocity. I love that. Right. Because, you know, look at the beginning of the quarter or the, or the year or the month, you could do a little slower in terms of what’s in the pipeline. And as you get to the last week of the month or the last month of the quarter or whatever that velocity might try to pick up a little bit. Right. So it’s not, one’s not good or bad, it just needs to be velocity-appropriate based on where you’re at.

0:08:46 – (Brynne Tillman): I love that. So one of the things that we hear all the time is, well, from leadership. First, I’ll start there is forecasting. My rep keeps saying these things are going to close and they don’t close and then they get ghosted and it’s not their fault. And oh, my champion left and all those. So how can a leader forecast better?

0:09:13 – (Richard Harris): Well, first of all, we already know the excuses that our sales team gives us and in some cases their reality, they aren’t excuses. So leaders need to step back and own up to the idea of where our goals even appropriate in the first place. Right. Because if they weren’t, you know, it’s kind of like, sorry, like because my guy left doesn’t mean it’s my fault that you chose the wrong goal. Right. The other thing that I think that leaders need to do is we already know, like, oh, the deal’s going to push because they lost budget. We already know the deal’s going to push because my champion left. We already know the deal is going to push because someone got promoted or someone’s on paternity leave or whatever.

0:09:57 – (Richard Harris): When was the last time any sales leader did any training session on, oh, if your person leaves, here’s who you should talk to, right? Here’s how you handle it. Here’s what to say. Which often comes back to multithreading. It’s a bigger issue. Why haven’t our sales leaders taught us how to multithread more effectively rather than complain when our deal pushes because our sole person left and then blamed the rep for not knowing how to be a multithreader?

0:10:28 – (Richard Harris): Dude, you’re right there with them. Stop whining. So there’s an wrapped around all this. And I don’t think people do it intentionally. I think it’s human nature. Like I have done it. I think we all do. There’s a lack of accountability when something doesn’t go our way.

0:10:46 – (Brynne Tillman): Sure. We don’t want to be blamed, right?

0:10:49 – (Richard Harris): And so leaders do that. CEO’s do it to the board, CEO’s do it to the leaders. The leaders do, you know, like that’s what happens.

0:10:57 – (Brynne Tillman): In my opinion, it’s a cycle. So, yeah, so that’s that. I’m a big fan of multi-threading. I mean, LinkedIn for me is one of the best ways that we teach this, right? You get in, if you have a sales navigator, there is a feature called Persona where you put in all of your decision makers, either function and or title company and you click the little toggle and it tells you your 6.8 decision-makers. Right? Like whatever that, whatever the new number is this quarter.

0:11:29 – (Richard Harris): Right?

0:11:30 – (Brynne Tillman): Right. The challenge is 6.8, right?

0:11:33 – (Richard Harris): Yeah, whatever. Mister Dixon says.

0:11:37 – (Brynne Tillman): 100% there.

0:11:38 – (Richard Harris): Right?

0:11:38 – (Brynne Tillman): Yeah. And I have, I have the book behind me somewhere on that, I’m sure because that’s one of my favorites. But anyway, so finding those folks, I’m going to have what. And I have, you know, what I train. But what are some of the things that you would say to a salesperson? They go, okay, you got one champion, one person that loves you. Now start to socially surround the 6.8. What are some things that you recommend so that they do multi-thread.

0:12:05 – (Richard Harris): Yeah. So this is one, by the way, this is one of the reasons I asked for the skeptic, right? Because that’s what I’m going to end up finding out what they’re skeptical about. Okay, well, that’s probably someone I need to sort of engage lightly, softly, right. I might say, great. In addition to the skeptic, what other parts of the organization are affected by this decision? Because it’s going to be it or security or sales ops or revops or marketing, whoever, right.

0:12:37 – (Richard Harris): Okay, well, then I start to look for those people, right? And then I would turn around and I would say to say, Brynne, look, every decision I know is made by committee. What’s the easiest way, Brynne, for me to support you as you talk to these different people in the committee? Because I don’t. Brynne, I don’t ever want you to sound like, feel like a ping pong ball.

0:12:58 – (Brynne Tillman): Yeah.

0:12:59 – (Richard Harris): So if there’s any department, you don’t have to tell me who they are yet, Bren. There’s any department where you’re like, oh, someone in marketing is going to ask for this and someone in it is going to ask for that. Tell me. Like, I just, you know, I’ll give it to you. And just through that little bit of communication, I can start to put the puzzle pieces together.

0:13:19 – (Brynne Tillman): So how do you feel about educating that champion? Here are the three things your marketing is probably going to ask.

0:13:26 – (Richard Harris): So this is a great question because that’s where I was going to head, right? Was. And I interrupted you. I’m sorry, go ahead.

0:13:33 – (Brynne Tillman): No, no, Dan, I’m asking you the question.

0:13:35 – (Richard Harris): Okay. I just make sure, like all of a sudden, I’m going to jump into mansplaining mode, and I’m trying to do less of that.

0:13:40 – (Brynne Tillman): That’s okay. I do a lot of mansplaining. So you can.

0:13:45 – (Richard Harris): That’s awesome. So I think, you know, you can also sort of lead the witness with some questions and saying, hey, Brynne, you know, oftentimes, you know, thanks for sharing who the skeptic was. Oftentimes, marketing is involved, and they have these kinds of questions. And this department is involved. These people have these kind of questions. Does that work the same way with you? Because if so, I’ll start getting you what you want when you want it.

0:14:11 – (Richard Harris): So we already know to a certain extent, so we can kind of lead the witness and still give the witness enough control to say, I’m not ready to go there yet. I’m not this or, no, that’s too soon. All those are great answers. Those are green flags. Even though they feel like red flags, they’re green flags because it tells us we’re headed in the right direction. Right.

0:14:36 – (Brynne Tillman): We’re not getting.

0:14:37 – (Richard Harris): Yeah, it means. It means we’re still in, you know, in the. In the. In the. What do you call it? The pace lapses. Right. You know, you’re still behind the pace bar on the racetrack. They haven’t dropped the green flag. So. So I think those are ways to do it.

0:14:52 – (Brynne Tillman): I love it.

0:14:54 – (Richard Harris): And professionally, now, now comes the nuance. This is usually the next question, okay, well, when can I reach out to them on LinkedIn, if I know it’s these other departments in these other heads, do I go behind Brynne’s back and reach out to them and connect with them? I don’t know. Some people would. Some people wouldn’t.

0:15:17 – (Brynne Tillman): I say no. I have my own opinion, though.

0:15:19 – (Richard Harris): Yeah, well, so I think it depends, but I probably would. However, if I didn’t do that, I might go see if they’re social on LinkedIn. I might just start liking their content. I might start commenting on things that have nothing to do with what I’m trying to sell, but agree or share a position or share a story. They don’t need to know that I’m engaged with Brynne in a conversation, but I could start to be social with them so that when the time is right, maybe I’m not totally unfamiliar with them. Like, when they see me, they might be like, why do I know that guy’s name? You know what? You know? So anyway, here’s your opinion. What is your opinion?

0:16:01 – (Brynne Tillman): I have a formula.

0:16:03 – (Richard Harris): Okay, good.

0:16:04 – (Brynne Tillman): So you follow them very early on. You’re connected with your champion. And before you’re even talking to your champion, all you’re doing is following them. When the time is right with your champion, you can say, hey, I have been following this side of your organization. Totally legit. When I connect with them, can I mention we’re having this conversation?

0:16:32 – (Richard Harris): Oh, I love this.

0:16:33 – (Brynne Tillman): I asked permission. I’m not asking permission to connect. I’m asking permission to name-drop.

0:16:42 – (Richard Harris): Right. You said, when I connect with them, can I name?

0:16:45 – (Brynne Tillman): And I mention that? Yeah, we’re having this conversation.

0:16:49 – (Richard Harris): That’s great. I like that. I think that’s a really helpful, subtle way to do it.

0:16:53 – (Brynne Tillman): So most of the time, I get, oh, yeah, sure. Great. So my connection now, which I think has a huge success rate, is. So, Richard, you connect. Richard, Janet, and I have been. Are talking about x, y, and Z. Your name came up in our conversation, and, you know, she gave me permission to reach out and tell you a little bit about what we’re talking about to loop you in. Right. And so now, right now, I’ve got.

0:17:33 – (Brynne Tillman): So Janet. Janet said, sure, you can mention we’re talking. I’ll even say, here are the seven people that I’m following when I reach out. So your names have all been mentioned. Right. So, Richard, when I was taught, when I was talking with Janet, your name came up in conversation. Here are the things we’re discussing, and I want to loop you in. Who doesn’t want to be looped in?

0:17:59 – (Richard Harris): I agree. I agree. I have a generational question. Right. I’m Gen Xer, by the way, people who are watching, I fell and have two black eyes. That’s why I wear sunglasses. I’m not that cool.

0:18:09 – (Brynne Tillman): And the people that are listening, he looks perfectly fine.

0:18:13 – (Richard Harris): Thank you. Generationally, I wonder how that plays out, because if I think about the 18-year-olds, the 20-year-olds, the 22-year-olds, you know, it’s April, late April 2024. A bunch of kids are going to start graduating from college this year.

0:18:29 – (Brynne Tillman): I have 21-year-old twins that are.

0:18:32 – (Richard Harris): There you go. Right. So they’re going to come in with a very different opinion of social than what you and I have done. There’s still this sort of hands-off, don’t upset anybody in social. Right. And they have a whole other idea of what social is like. And I’m. And I don’t know that it’s changing tomorrow. Right. Like, you know, but in five years, will people care if someone is connected with them or not?

0:19:00 – (Richard Harris): Will their generation care if someone can? You think?

0:19:04 – (Brynne Tillman): 100%.

0:19:05 – (Richard Harris): Well, tell me.

0:19:06 – (Brynne Tillman): They trust their network versus any ad. Like we Gen Xers will watch a Miller lite ad and all of a sudden we go to the ballgame. We’re like, oh, maybe I’ll try Miller light. They don’t trust ads. They don’t trust anything except their friends and close network.

0:19:28 – (Richard Harris): That’s my point, though. Won’t they just, if they’re in a deal cycle unless they’re told not to do it because that’s not appropriate. Wouldn’t they just connect with these other seven decision-makers? Because that’s just what you do.

0:19:39 – (Brynne Tillman): That’s just, no, but no, because you’re coming in cold. So this is, in my opinion, it’s all opinion. I have no study on.

0:19:47 – (Richard Harris): We need to have your kids on here. I want to ask them this question.

0:19:49 – (Brynne Tillman): I will. And actually, my son is a Rutgers business and he will be in a, he’s going to be a financial advisor, which is sales. Right.

0:19:58 – (Richard Harris): Right.

0:19:59 – (Brynne Tillman): He’s got a great internship with 1847 Financial and Berkside firm. Anyway, moving on. So I believe that a cold call will never land with the next generation ever. A cold connection. And if I name-drop without permission, I will lose credibility faster than you and I. So there.

0:20:24 – (Richard Harris): Because I disagree, I think your son will be able to say, oh, we’re both connected to Bob or Sarah or Rebecca. Therefore I thought we should connect in that generation. If he’s going up the chain, if he’s going up the market to someone who’s 35 or 40, might not work, 20-something just like him, I don’t think they’re going to care.

0:20:45 – (Brynne Tillman): So I’m going to tell he is in a few weeks, flying to Georgia to meet one of his best friends that he’s never met before because they’ve been gaming for seven years.

0:20:56 – (Richard Harris): Right, right.

0:20:57 – (Brynne Tillman): And he’s one of his best friends and he’s never met him.

0:21:00 – (Richard Harris): So we’re in Georgia. I’m from Georgia. I know.

0:21:02 – (Brynne Tillman): He’s flying into Atlanta. I don’t even know because he’s 21 and he booked his own flight.

0:21:06 – (Richard Harris): Oh, my goodness. Anyway, don’t use your credit card. Just. No. Oh, good. Wow.

0:21:12 – (Brynne Tillman): He’s finance. Yep.

0:21:14 – (Richard Harris): He’s off the payroll.

0:21:15 – (Brynne Tillman): He’s off the payroll. I mean, other than that, we paid for college. He’s awesome.

0:21:19 – (Richard Harris): Well, sure, sure.

0:21:22 – (Brynne Tillman): But that, so that being said, I know we kind of went on a tangent. We do have to cut. No, that’s okay. This was so much fun. I think relationships get stronger and stronger and stronger. So I believe getting permission to name-drop, we are talking about this subject your name came up. She. She said hello. Right. She’s like.

0:21:47 – (Richard Harris): She.

0:21:48 – (Brynne Tillman): So I’m coming in saying that your company is already talking to me about this solution, and I want to you in because you should be looped in, and it’s not. We’re already having this conversation so in my. We’ll see. And my. I believe that my son will learn and do what? I will let you know in five years how that turned out.

0:22:11 – (Richard Harris): Yeah.

0:22:12 – (Brynne Tillman): It’s.

0:22:13 – (Richard Harris): It won’t truly change until they get in charge. Right. Like, they won’t.

0:22:18 – (Brynne Tillman): Yeah. But I still think that relationships matter more to them. They’re more skeptical about advertising and cold calling. They just are. I mean, they. And they don’t even pick up the phone when I call. They text back.

0:22:34 – (Richard Harris): Oh, I totally. I. Believe me, I’m right there with you. Like, if I were on Snapchat with them, that’s how they call me. Right. Like, that’s the only way they’d ever call me.

0:22:44 – (Brynne Tillman): Yeah. You know they’re an interesting bunch, but they’re gonna be great. They’re smart.

0:22:50 – (Richard Harris): They’re really.

0:22:52 – (Brynne Tillman): The ones I know are incredibly smart. So. So I’m. We’re gonna wrap this up with sort of two last questions. The first one is, what question did I not ask you that I should have?

0:23:05 – (Richard Harris): Right.

0:23:07 – (Brynne Tillman): And then the second one will be, how can people connect with you?

0:23:11 – (Richard Harris): So you can. Yeah. So I’ll do the. I’ll do the second one first. It’ll give me a minute to think about the question. But the easiest way to get ahold of me is Richard Harris. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m the one with a little trademark by my name. Yes, I know you can’t trademark your name. Please stop telling me. I put that up there, like, in 2012 before everybody else figured out if you. You could use emojis in your name and LinkedIn. So that was my first emoji.

0:23:37 – (Richard Harris): So that’s why that’s there. You can also get me at 415-596-9149 415-596-9149 it’s the same cell phone that my kids ignore, just like Bryn. I know. It’s my real phone number. You can always text me and let me know you heard me here, so I’ll answer the phone. A question you didn’t ask me is. It’s a long answer, but, you know, what is the effect of AI on sales now? And in the next two or three years? That’s probably the one.

0:24:13 – (Brynne Tillman): We’ve got a minute and a half go.

0:24:15 – (Richard Harris): Yep. Easy. So right now AI is meant to enhance your capabilities. It shall not replace you. It will at some point, in a sense that we’re already being affected and conditioned and trained by Amazon and the whole online experience to buy as a buyer at a consumer level. Right? 100%. And we’ve even gotten to the point where we’ll go buy $100,000 car before you even test drive it. Not everybody, but it’s not uncommon.

0:24:48 – (Richard Harris): Yeah.

0:24:48 – (Brynne Tillman): We have a carvana near us. It’s a vending machine.

0:24:52 – (Richard Harris): Totally. So we’re already being conditioned at the b two c level to make it at the b two b level and at some levels. And b two b, it is already happening. Right. Particularly in the developer world. Like if you build apps and tools and stuff like that to that community, they don’t really want to talk to salespeople. So I think it’s there to enhance us for now and not replace this. I do think if you’re in sales now, you want to get as much experience to get to mid-market and enterprise sales sooner than later, as fast as you can, because that’ll be the last place humans are replaced. Right.

0:25:29 – (Richard Harris): You know, half a million-dollar deal. A million-dollar deal isn’t going to be decided without human-to-human conversation. Right. Right. Now you could probably say that up to about maybe 50 to 100k people might make a $50,000 decision without talking to a human. But I’m not convinced that that’ll.

0:25:48 – (Brynne Tillman): Yeah, maybe actually on a consumer level, but I don’t know on b two b yet.

0:25:53 – (Richard Harris): I think it’s like it goes back to that developer world. Like if I’m building something that’s a dev tool.

0:25:58 – (Brynne Tillman): I bought my house sight unseen.

0:26:01 – (Richard Harris): Yep.

0:26:01 – (Brynne Tillman): Because it was in the middle. It was the end of the pandemic.

0:26:04 – (Richard Harris): Yep.

0:26:05 – (Brynne Tillman): It was the exact place I wanted. It was the right square footage. My daughter, who’s the realtor, walked around, I guess sight unseen with FaceTime, and I said, put in the full offer.

0:26:15 – (Richard Harris): Yeah.

0:26:15 – (Brynne Tillman): And that’s it.

0:26:16 – (Richard Harris): That’s it.

0:26:16 – (Brynne Tillman): I bought it before I saw it. So with that said, we do have to kind of wrap this up. This was great. Maybe we’ll do it again. Or maybe we’ll have you on for a masterclass because you have such brilliant thoughts and strategies. But I thank you so much. Where to reach Richard Harris, trademarked. And thank you all for listening. Don’t forget, when you’re out and about to make your sales social, don’t miss an episode.

Outro:

Thanks for watching and join us again for more special guest instructors, bringing you marketing, sales training, and social selling strategies that will set you apart. Hit the subscribe button below to get the latest episodes from the Making Sales Social podcast give this video a thumbs up and comment down below on what you want to hear from us next. You can also listen to us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and Google Play. Visit our website, socialsaleslink.com for more information.