Episode 92: Virginia Muzquiz – The Alchemy of Referrals

Virginia Muzquiz  00:00

Well, one of the things that I have known, I learned from my dad, who was an entrepreneur, is that people in business are people and people are social, and people buy from people they know, like, and trust. And if you want to get a loan, if you want to get anything done in the entire world, it is about trading on favors and trading on trust and creating relationships that make people want to help you. 

And so my dad was masterful at being social and selling. So I would say what does it mean? It means my dad and everything that he taught me about business back in the day, which was really, my dad was the salt of the earth, spit-and-a-handshake kind of guy and I still do business that way. 

Bob Woods  00:45

Welcome to the Making Sales Social Podcast! Featuring the top voices in sales and marketing. Join hosts Brynne Tillman and Bill McCormick as they discuss the best tips and strategies they are teaching their clients so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling. You can also listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Here are your hosts Brynne Tillman and Bill McCormick.

 Bill McCormick  01:22

Welcome back to Making Sales Social. I’m Bill McCormick. 

Brynne Tillman  01:25

I’m Brynne Tillman.

Bill McCormick  01:226

And Brynne, who’s joining us today?

Brynne Tillman  01:28

I am so excited to have my new friend Virginia Muzquiz, who is the Referral Alchemist. Now why I’m so excited, I met her through a joint venture group and we talked and hit it off. And like I’m just so excited not about even just about who she is as a human being, which is really cool but the value that she’s about to bring to our listeners because it’s all about referrals. And everyone, yeah, everyone that follows everything we do, knows that the core of what we teach is client referrals, an opportunity and introductions and permission to name drop. So Virginia, welcome to the show. Tell everyone a little bit about you.

 Virginia Muzquiz  02:15

Thanks for having me, Brynne. Thanks, Bill. So I am Virginia Muzquiz and I have been known as the Referral Diva and recently upgraded myself to the Referral Alchemist. So I’m excited about this new era in my life. I guess without getting a lot of background in here, I’ll just say this. I’m a teacher by trade, I had what has now become known as the “Direct Sales Epic Fail.” And I just presented on a summit about the direct sales epic fail, what not to do to be successful if you want to be successful in direct sales. So I had an epic fail there. That led me to work for a Sylvan Learning Center franchisee who had seven locations and at the time, was breaking into No Child Left Behind. And so he hired me to be his VP of contract sales and I started with him in 2005. We had zero business that first year because he didn’t really tell me what he wanted me to do. And then I had to figure out like, “Oh, he actually wants me to do it because he doesn’t know what he’s doing either.” So we tried it his way, that didn’t work. I was like “You should let the lady lead on this one.” And so we did. And in five years, my fifth year, I turned in two and a half million dollars in revenue that year, collected over seven months. So it was a seven-month year and I did it without a single dollar in ad spend. (Brynne: Was it all through referrals?) It was, it was word of mouth. It was all through word of mouth. 

And then in 2010, 2011, the people who will own the Business Network International franchises in my area said, “Could you teach our class, our members how to do that?” And I was like, “Yeah, but you’d have to pay me $100,000 To write the curriculum for you because, like, I’m not going to leave my job to write a curriculum for you.” And then it turned out Ivan Misner had a franchise called the Referral Institute. So we bought together, we partnered and we bought a Referral Institute franchise. I did that for five years. In year two, I was the first person to break the double six-figure barrier and I was elected to the executive circle three times. And then they changed direction, it wasn’t a direction that I was completely in alignment with, so I started helping my husband with the BNI franchises, we bought those in 2013 and just in 2017, rebranded as Master Connector, really exciting stuff. 

I’m married to my husband, it’ll be 35 years. We have two grown daughters, Megan who is 24, and Nicole who’s 26. Megan has a son who is the light of my, just the light of my existence. He’s four years old and we live on a little farm. We got some horses and from time to time we got chickens and tomatoes and we got some cats and bugs, lots of bugs. (Brynne: Awesome.)

Bill McCormick  05:11

I can’t wait to dive in but before we do, before we get to the “referral alchemy” let’s ask you the question we ask every guest. What does making sales social mean to you?

Virginia Muzquiz  05:26

What does making sales social mean to me? Well, one of the things that I have known, I learned from my dad, who is an entrepreneur, is that people in business are people and people are social, and people buy from people they know, like, and trust. And if you want to get a loan, if you want to get anything done in the entire world, it is about trading on favors and trading on trust and creating relationships that make people want to help you. And so my dad was masterful at being social and selling. So I would say what does it mean? It means my dad and everything that he taught me about business back in the day, which was really my dad was a salt of the earth, spit-in-a-handshake kind of guy and I still do business that way.

Brynne Tillman  06:13

Awesome. Even during COVID? Spit in the handshake? Just curious.

Virginia Muzquiz  06:17

I got an immune system, sister, but we won’t go there. We already have that conversation, Brynne.

Brynne Tillman  06:24

So, keep moving on. I love the idea that you grew a business all through word of mouth and all through referrals from nothing, right? Like his way didn’t work and so let’s try this. So talk to us a little bit about what that framework looks like, you know, are you going around asking people who do you know? Who do you know? Or is there a better way to do that?

Virginia Muzquiz  06:47

So here’s the really funny story, right? So I was a Mary Kay lady. That was my direct sales epic fail. And I learned from a woman named Gloria Mayfield Banks. And Gloria taught us this script. “Hi, my name is Virginia Muzquiz and I’m with Mary Kay Cosmetics. Every single day I make it a point to find five sharp women to share our amazing products within today. Brynne, I have selected you. I’ve got a lipstick shade in here that I think is going to knock your socks off and I would love to get your feedback on this amazing lipstick shade. Could I get your business card?” (Brynne: Okay.) Okay, so, and Bill you’re laughing but that’s how I got recruited into BNI, just saying. This woman said, “Sure, but only if you’ll come as my visitor to a BNI meeting.” (crosstalk)

So there you go. All right, so transform that, I go in. I go to, I go into this urban environment. I live in O’Fallon, Illinois. At the time, I was living in St. Louis, Missouri and I go into the urban environment, and I’m literally standing on street corners going, “Hi, I’m Virginia Muzquiz with Sylvan Learning Center. Do you want your baby to be tutored by the best of the best? The gold standard…” whatever and people were like, “No!” And I was like, okay, well, that approach isn’t working. So I needed a new approach. 

So I went to my mentor who owned the BNI franchises and of course, I’m a drama queen, so I’m like hyperventilating, sobbing, like, “I can’t do this” and she’s like, “don’t be a dumb…” Of course you can. Do it the BNI way. Build yourself some power teams, build yourself a network, go trade on favors, go trade on trust, here’s how you do it. So I made a list of all of the influencers in this first community that we were serving. And I went to them, and I said, “What do you need? What is your mission? And what do you need to make your mission viable? Like where do you struggle? Where are your sticking points? Where are your bottlenecks? What are some things that keep you from being successful?”

And I made it my business to take the marketing budget now my guy did not love this, right? Because of course, he was an investor owner. So what do investor owners want? They kind of want to keep as much as possible. So for him, like, great, we’re not going to do a 10% ad spend. This is hot, I get to put 10% more in my pocket. I was like “No, no, no, no, no! No.”  What we’re gonna do is contribution marketing.

And so what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna find out what people need and we’re gonna throw money at it because money we have. Influence we do not have, power we do not have, connections we do not have. The only thing we have is money. And you can think like Sylvan Learning Center, gold star brand, the creme de la creme of tutoring, nobody cares about that. Nobody cares if you’re the creme de la creme of nothing. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. And the way you go to an impoverished environment and show you care is to make the missions possible. 

So I started creating, I created a little council and we all got together and we started looking at what knowledge and resources do we all have that we could bring to the table? Mine was like, I got money. Some people were like, I have paper. Other people were like I have a broken copier. Someone else was, like, I know a guy who can fix the copier. Right? So the next thing, you know, I’m creating this sort of consortium of leaders who have influence over my constituents, that is families in that urban environment because they were, they were providing health care, they were providing money, they were providing food, they were providing all sorts of support, right, and that’s who I wanted to support.

So I created that consortium and then I told them this, I said, I only want third through fifth graders. And they said, why? And I said because I want you to be able to do this exact same model with other providers of your choice because they need to contribute to you as well because I’m not, I can’t contribute enough to your mission. So I just want third through fifth graders. I had a reason for that, you know what it was? We got paid on whether they showed up and whether they made improvements, it’s really easy to get a third-grader to grade level, it’s really easy to get them to show up. Ring Pops work wonders. Like you would be surprised what Juicy Juice does, right? 

So it was super easy in that regard because I only wanted that but then what happens is every third grader has a sibling who’s a sixth-grader or a cousin who’s a ninth grader, or whatever. So once the third graders were getting results, and they really loved the program, and I was working with the parents, you know, they, the parents wanted to do more with us. And that’s how we proliferated the program. 

The next thing I did was I taught my managers how to do it because I couldn’t do two and a half million dollars on my back, I still had to do state compliance and nitpicking and all of that. So I taught 10 people how to do it and that is when we did the two and a half million. And that is why the owner of the BNI franchise said, “Could you teach my people how to do it?” And I knew that I could and it’s why I know that I can do it day in and day out with my clients because I did it back then. 

Brynne Tillman  11:51

So how did you choose the cohort, the group of people that you wanted to network with?

Virginia Muzquiz  11:58

It depended on their, like, the size of their constituency, really. And then really, you know, some of them just self-selected because I don’t know, we’re not doing video, right. So just let’s be clear, I’m a blue-eyed, blonde-haired girl from Jersey, I’m not urban, okay. And I’m not, I’m not raised in urban, and I was not — I am now, but when I started, I did not understand the urban environment. I didn’t understand the ethic, the culture, any of that. 

So a really big part of it was just finding the people that would educate me and going in with a sense of humility and saying, “I have this to help you but I need a lot of help.” because, you know, it’s tantamount to we had a horse and the horse was really ornery. And I called the horse trainer and I said, my horse has a horrible human problem and I really need you to come out of retirement and help me because I knew the horse wasn’t the problem, right? And so what I knew in the environment is the people aren’t the problem, the problems are the problems. And we have to partner to solve problems. 

And really, it was just about who wanted to part—and who chose to partner with me to solve the problems. And then from there, other people were like, “Oh, wait, I want that. I want her. I want her help. I want that too.” And because I was humble, and because I rolled up my sleeves, and I slung a lot of burgers and handed out a lot of grape soda. And I’ve got a lot of fun stories to tell. I was pretty much the only blue-eyed blond-haired chick in East St. Louis that had basically orders of protection from all the gangs.  

Brynne Tillman  13:25

That’s hysterical. So how do we take that amazing story and leverage those lessons to the average sales professional or business owner who really wants to grow a network of referral partners but you know, isn’t necessarily in a situation that creates a cohort of people to give a lot away initially, right? (Virginia: Yeah.) So what would you say so maybe they join a BNI? Maybe they join a networking group, but you know, there are some BNI-ers that get a lot of referrals. And there’s a ton that don’t, right, like and, and obviously, there are givers gain, right? So there’s a lot of value inside of there but um, what, you know, from that story, from that awesome story of pulling together a cohort, what would you say to a salesperson, “Well, I’m not really in a position, I don’t have the company money to put behind it, I don’t print paper, I sell telephone systems or I’m a banker,” right? “And I, my job is to find clients that want capital,” right, what would you recommend to them in how to create a referral group that’s effective?

Virginia Muzquiz  14:43

Okay. So yes, there’s a lot of things. So let’s start here. Number one, I do want to say this because BNI works for those who work it. Sometimes you just don’t know how to really work it and that’s where I think people you know, and I’m a member of a chapter, I just built my own chapter and I’m a member and it is tough like going back to being a member and then being a darn good one is tough. So you have to be willing to put in the time because relationships take time. We don’t just meet somebody at a bar, like 90-Day Fiance and Married at First Sight is dumb. That’s why it makes, that’s why it’s stupid reality TV. (Bill: That’s why it’s reality TV.) Right? Because it’s dumb. It’s a, that’s why the Bachelor is dumb, like, these are dumb ideas. So you’ve got to be willing one to put in the time. So if you’re going to be transactional and you just, you want to sell, you want to sell, you want to sell, that’s cool. That’s called cold calling. Go ahead. Every 100 people you talk to you’ll get three sales, knock your socks off. Nothing wrong with it, I built my entire Mary Kay sales, my sales base, my client base, cold calling out of the phone book back in the day. I mean, I don’t know if anybody knows what a phone book is anymore, but I had one and I used it. 

So to answer the question is number one, you got to start with some clarity. The number one piece of clarity is to know your client avatar and know your partner avatar. So you need two avatars. One is you need to know what does your ideal client look like? You know Lulu Lemon, her name is Ocean, she’s early 30s. She’s on her second pregnancy, she loves to work out. She’s a graphic designer, she’s a creative, she does yoga, right? So you need to do that first. And most entrepreneurs avoid it because they think by narrowing down, they’re missing out but the truth is, your brain doesn’t work like that. Your brain just needs like a little thing to compare everything to, to kind of sort of get to the right thing. (Brynne: Yeah.)

And so really, the number one thing is build your avatar and then also your referral partner avatar, which has to do with getting really clear on your values. Ivan Misner and Stuart Emery collaborated on a book called Who’s in Your Room. And the premise is, you’re in a room, it has a one-way door. If you let somebody in, they can’t ever leave. So be wary of who you invite in. And then I was interviewing Ivan and I said, “Well, Ivan, you know, you can push people out the window.” And he said, “Yeah, I want you to think about anybody you’ve ever pushed out the window of your life.” And I go, “Yeah,” he goes, “Did you think of somebody?” and I said, “Sure.” he goes, “Then they’re still in your room. Their dirty laundry is smelling up the corner.”

(Brynne: Wow, that’s such a brilliant insight.) Yeah, you can never get them out of your room. So be clear on your values and do not invite that into your room. And beware that when you decide to do that, you will get a lot of vehemently negative feedback. And that’s okay, so just saying. So that’s number one. 

Number two is changing the way you converse with people. So we typically have something I call PPFD. It stands for pervasive product focus disorder. “Hi, my name is Polly. I’m a promotional products person, I can put your logo on anything. I can put it on pens, I can put it on calendars, I can put it on keychains. I can put it on mouse pads, I can put it on…” Right? And then the minute runs out, and everybody’s head, eyeballs are rolled back in their head. But if Polly comes along and she says “Hi, my name is Polly and I’m a loyalty architect. How many of you would like to increase your client retention? How many of you would like your clients to buy more from you? How many, how many? I would love to show you how to do that. Give me a call.” Her tool? Promotional Products. Okay? There’s a big difference between what we…

Brynne Tillman  18:15

So Bill’s wife owns a promotional products company, FYI. So we’ll make sure she listens to this. (Virginia: There you go, right.)

Bill McCormick  18:22

Actually, that’s how we got started in BNI. (Virginia: Okay, cool!)

Brynne Tillman  18:26

That’s so funny.

Virginia Muzquiz  18:27

I mean, it’s good, it’s good stuff, right. So um, that I think the really, the key piece of it is what I call empathy marketing, which means you’ve got to do some talking and some, like, asking questions and good listening, to be able to really understand what people want and, you know, Brynne, you are telling me, this is what you do in LinkedIn, you don’t just vomit a whole bunch of “Hi, I’m Virginia and I want to sell you my stuff.” Right? You say, “Hey, I found an article. If you’re interested, maybe I’ll send over the link. Let me know and I’ll send you the link.” It’s not like this vomitrocious experience. It’s got to be a little give, there’s a little dance, there’s a little give, there’s a little take, right. And I want you to feel seen and heard and understood. So I’m going to use your language. 

If I’m a chiropractor and I say I will solve your subluxation problem, that does not register for me. If I’m a chiropractor and I say I can solve your neck pain and stop those migraines from keeping you from doing the things that you love. Now we’re talking, right? Now we’re talking their language. So that’s number two. 

Number three is to begin to build your team. And to build your team, you need to grab your referral partner avatar, you need to know who does business with your ideal client avatar in ways that you do not. And then you need to invite them on the team. And then you need to have a methodology for knowing if this person is worth spending more time with because the next thing that people do is they spend, they spend too much time with the wrong people doing the right work. And you’ve got to do the right work with the right people for the right amount of time with the right frequency and the way you know what that is, and I’ll close out here the way you know what that is, is you watch what people actually do. So you listen to what they say, then you watch what they do. And you adjust your behavior, your input to what they do back for you. 

So if I say to you, Brynne, let’s exchange podcasts, and I get on your podcast, and then I blow you off for my podcast, we’re kind of, we’re not done as friends. We’re like, oh, well, we’re not going to go any further through the line until Virginia puts me on her darn podcast, right? Like, you’re going to wait until I deliver. Maybe you say, “Hey, I know we need to reschedule. Can we get that happening?” But you’re not giving any more. You don’t say like, “Oh, maybe if I give her more, she’ll keep her word to me.” No, you did yours. I’ll do mine, then we can take it, what’s our next step. But it’s got to be that… (Brynne: Balance.) (crosstalk) exchange.

Brynne Tillman  20:56

Yeah, it’s got to be balanced. It’s got to be a win-win. And, for the record, when I’m out there, whether it’s through JVMM or talking with people, I always look at things like I want to be coming from the high side affair, so that everyone feels at the end that, you know, not only was it fair, but it was a little extra. Like it’s a little you know, that was a little you know, and so that’s always my goal in any engagement with some was I’m hoping they walk away feeling like, not only was it balanced, but it was like, you know, a little bonus in there a little extra, whatever that might be. 

Bill McCormick  21:37

Yeah, and I think you know, really what we’re talking about, we’ve said this before, be a good human. And but goes one step further, be a good human with intentionality. You’re just not giving of yourself until there’s nothing left to give, you’re giving with yourself but you’re putting up boundaries. When you see something happen that the action doesn’t match what your expectations are, then something has to change. And I really am going to encourage all the sales professionals listening, is really look at, as a referral partner avatar, that’s not something I’ve really thought of before. I’ve heard it said before but I’ve not thought it through before of how really, really important that is. So that you’re not taking meetings with people that you have no business taking meetings with. Because I think we spin our wheels a lot, Virginia, would just say, meeting the wrong people. And then saying that “Oh, this referral thing just doesn’t work.”

Virginia Muzquiz  22:42

It’s just easier to meet with people that you like that make you feel good, you get a little dopamine hit. And then you feel great. Like I had the best cup of coffee with Bill McCormick, it was so great. I mean, he’s so fascinating and such a great human and right. But if we’re not uniquely suited to be promotional partners for one another, then that’s great. I’ll just move you into my social network and let you be social with me. I’ll invite you to my parties, we’ll go out to not business lunches just to catch up. And we’ll be friends. But yes, your business partners should become your friends. But not all your friends should become your business partners. You know, not all flowers or daisies kind of thing.

Brynne Tillman  23:24

Yeah. So one of the things that we often teach our folks, I just love to hear a little feedback on that, before we wrap this up, is we often say go to your clients and ask them who are the other vendors you’re purchasing from who are the other people you’re buying from? And would you be open to introducing me to them? Typically, majority of the time, if not almost all the time, those vendors will take your call because you have a shared client. And then it’s easier to refer them because you have a client that likes them, and it’s easier for them to refer you. What are your thoughts around that activity?

Virginia Muzquiz  24:01

Brilliant. I mean, it’s brilliant, right? I would maybe take the conversation to the level of what do you admire most about them? So I would get some sort of complimentary something out of that. So that when I call you and I say “Hi, Brynne, this is Virginia. Bill suggested that I give you a call, you know, Bill really loves the way your company does blah, blah, blah for him, and I was astounded and really wanted to meet you. I would love to know somebody who would treat my clients like that as well. Could we have a conversation?” (Brynne: That’s awesome.)

Bill McCormick  24:33

That’s really good.

Brynne Tillman  24:35

Really good. That’s a great way.

Virginia Muzquiz  24:38

If I say to you, like, “Oh, who’s your accountant?” “It’s Bill. It’s Joe.” “What do you love about him?” “Well, they do my taxes.” I don’t really want to, I don’t want to know that person. I want to know the person that when I asked, like somebody lights up about them and can’t shut up about them. That’s who I want to be in conversation, right.

Brynne Tillman  24:57

I love that conversation. They go, “It’s Joe.” Right, because then I go, “You know, if you’re not in love with your CPA, I’ve got a couple of CPAs that my other clients use that they absolutely love. Would you be open to an introduction, exploring a new one that brings you joy?” Right? (Virginia: Right.)

Bill McCormick  25:14

And then you’re being a service to your clients. Virginia this has been fantastic. (Brynne: Yeah, really good.) Really just scratched the surface. I think a return trip will definitely be a… (Brynne: Or a masterclass!) or a master class. And you can find more masterclass information at Social Sales Link and look at our events page. But thank you so much. This has been fantastic. We really appreciate you and to our audience, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Making Sales Social and as you’re out about this week, don’t forget to make your sales social. We’ll see you next time. Bye-bye, everyone. 

Bob Woods  25:50

Thanks for watching and join us again for more special guest instructors bringing you marketing, sales training, and social selling strategies that will set you apart. Hit the Subscribe button below to get the latest episodes from the Making Sales Social podcast! Give this video a thumbs up and comment down below on what you want to hear from us next. You can also listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Visit our website socialsaleslink.com for more information.

Resources Mentioned:

• Ivan Misner
• Referral Institute
• Master Connectors
• Who’s in Your Room: The Secret to Creating Your Best Life