Robbie Samuels [00:00]: I think if your book helps people become more aware of the bigger problem—not the little problem they know they have and are willing to admit, but the problem that you know they have—the book can bring them in based on what they’re curious about or want to know more about. It could make them realize there’s more to the story, realize there’s a solution they weren’t aware of, and it makes them trust you more than the question of urgency.
Bob Woods [00:22]: Welcome to the Making Sales Social podcast, featuring the top voices in sales, marketing, and business. Join Brynne Tillman, Stan Robinson Jr., and me, Bob Woods, as we each bring you the best tips and strategies our guests are teaching and using so you can leverage them for your own virtual and social selling.
Brynne Tillman [00:42]: Welcome to the show. Welcome back to Making Sales Social. I’m Brynne Tillman, and I am so darn excited with today’s guest, who is my real-life friend Robbie Samuels. He is an award-winning indie author and book launch strategist. Robbie helps entrepreneurs stop treating their book like a trophy and start using it as a business development tool. His newest book, Launch Your Book: An Entrepreneur’s Guide to Reviews That Drive Revenue, focuses on building intentional launch teams, generating meaningful written reviews, and creating momentum that leads to real opportunities. I am really excited, and the reason Robbie is here is I was part of one of his launches. He had a book with David Newman, and I was so blown away by the whole process. I was participating as David’s fan and past client, and I just loved what you did. I’m like, “Robbie, our network, our people need to know you.” So welcome to the show.
Robbie Samuels [00:48]: Thanks for having me, Brynne. This is great. I think the sales folks that you attract are the exact right people to learn this information.
Brynne Tillman [00:52]: Well, so you—and I’m kind of already off-script—but you worked with David Newman, who, by the way, when I became an entrepreneur, was the first consultant I hired. Absolutely. I used three things that he taught me—I’m sure there were 50, but three that stay in the thread of everything I do. He’s absolutely amazing. And you know, you reached out from a David Newman perspective, not our friendship really at that point, and asked, “Would you be part of this?” And I said, “Amazing. Sure.” I’ve been part of hundreds of these, and this was so perfectly executed. It was amazing.
Robbie Samuels [00:68]: Well, I just want to say, since you know him so well, we knew of each other through the National Speakers Association. He happens to even be in my chapter, but we didn’t know each other well. People were telling him to check into what I did. When he reached out and wanted to talk, I was actually a little like, “Why does David Newman, the marketing and sales expert, need to work with me on a launch plan when he has multiple books?” This is his fourth book. His other books have lots of reviews. So, you know, what am I missing here? I feel like I’m being asked to tell the shoemaker how to make better shoes. It just felt a little like, I don’t know if it was imposter syndrome, but this was the guy, right? Like the guy. So, he shared in an interview I did with him on my podcast, Biz Book PubHub, what he did for his first book and how many emails went out on its behalf. But the reviews didn’t come in because it wasn’t a reviews-focused launch team strategy. You get a lot of buzz, but then the buzz goes away. He had to work really hard for a long time. It took him like a year to get to the first 200 reviews, and we did 200 in about four weeks. It was a totally different experience. He’s become my number one fan. I just got to hang out with him at a National Speakers Association conference where he was pointing me out to people. I think even an exceptional salesperson or marketing professional would benefit from this conversation. I think it’s good we frontloaded that because there are people listening who think they know how to do this. It’s different, it’s changed, the emphasis is different, and as you said, the process I created for this was different. At some point, I finally revealed who I was because I’m basically acting as him in an inbox, which was a lot of fun to play as a character.
Brynne Tillman [01:23]: Yeah. No, it’s great. It was great. It was wonderful. And with me, we knew each other, so it was great. I was just blown away. So from that experience, being on the other side as someone supporting this, I was blown away. So let’s jump into some questions that are going to relate directly because most of the folks listening today are in sales, not necessarily marketing. Many are entrepreneurs responsible for growing their own business. Some are coaches, trainers, or speakers who don’t have a book yet or have an old book from 10 years ago they’re still trying to use, and it’s just not effective. I’m talking to these folks all the time, and they’ll say to me, “Well, what would writing another book do for generating leads?” So, Robbie, from your perspective, what separates the book that sits on that shelf from the book that actually starts sales conversations?
Robbie Samuels [01:50]: So the very first thing is it has to be a good book—a well-crafted book about a problem where you have an identifiable audience that knows they have that problem. Then you need to get the book into the hands of the people who need it most. If you write a book that no one needs because they don’t know they have that problem—sometimes people write book two before they write book one because it’s more exciting. The content for book one is old and boring to them, but by the time you’re bored of your content, you’re just getting started, really. You can’t have your wider audience jump to book two; they’re not going to join you there because their awareness of the problem is not there. So you have to have a well-crafted book with a very clear problem and an audience that knows they have that problem, and you need to get the book into the hands of the people who need to read it. I think when people create books, they’re doing it because they’re a speaker and they’re told they should, but they’re not really thinking about the pieces I just described. They end up with a book that is published—maybe it’s well-crafted, maybe it’s not—but no one really knows about it. You have to have a strong out-of-the-gate effort for the word-of-mouth piece to get started. People have to actually read the book, not just buy it. It’s actually easier to get people to buy your book than to get them to read it and take action. If you think about who would be most likely to read the book and take action, that’s how you get advocates. Then those people are going to make conversations happen for you. Since my fourth book came out, I’m at a point where you can refer someone. For instance, David referred somebody to me. The guy vaguely knew of me, got on a call, and bought—high-level credibility from David. David spoke from experience. The other person, by the way, has 15 books. Talk about why they need me—book 15. But David was like, “Come on, you’re a big guy. Why do you have 40 reviews? You should have 250. I should have more reviews than you.” He basically said, “What are you doing? Go talk to Robbie.” He hired me on the spot. That product-market fit—part of what a book is doing is even if people don’t hire you, like another person whose testimonial was my favorite—she read my book but didn’t hire me because she’d spent two grand she didn’t have on something that was a waste of her time. She was being very careful about what other money she spent on her book. She said, “I’m sorry, I really can’t work with you.” But she followed the process from my book on her own, got over 70 reviews, and got on a video testimonial to say, “I followed his process. These are the results I got.” But she also said, “That was a lot of work. When I write my next book, I am hiring Robbie.” Best testimonial ever. She did follow the process and it did work, but she realized it was a lot, and the time spent doing that has a cost. I think if your book helps people become more aware of the bigger problem, not just the little problem they admit to, it can bring them in based on curiosity. It could make them realize there’s more to the story, that there’s a solution they weren’t aware of, and it makes them trust you beyond the question of urgency. What is the cost of inaction? Now they know there’s a process. They could be doing something differently. If they do nothing, they’re not a prospect. If they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I could solve for this. I want to get done with this now,” they’re going to come onto a call with you pre-sold. That’s what a book can do. It’s not about a million copies sold; it’s about books getting to the right people through a direct purchase or a referral. The effort to get those reviews is a goal, but the process is the conversations you have with the people in your launch team.
Brynne Tillman [01:09]: I love that. All right, I’m going to totally get selfish for a second. So, my next book that I’m working on is called The Narcissistic Salesperson and the Journey to Recovery. Is that something that will turn off an audience? Or will they say, “Oh my gosh, I’m curious,” because I love it.
Robbie Samuels [10:29]: The way you do this—you have to be careful whose opinion you ask. I’m not going to be your target reader.
Brynne Tillman [10:36]: That’s okay. You’re also not my target audience.
Robbie Samuels [10:41]: Right, but that’s just it. I’m not going to give you a beneficial opinion. Depending on how well you know your audience, you talk to between 8 and 25 people—usually between 12 and 15 is plenty—and you do research calls. I wrote about this in Small List, Big Results. You’ve got to find out the words they’re using, because when people look at the title and subtitle and it speaks to them, they’ll want to pick up your book.
Brynne Tillman [11:14]: Is that part of your launch plan with someone, that you’ll identify if the book itself…?
Robbie Samuels [11:18]: I have a separate offer called the Author ROI Lab, which is a small group program where we go through a plan and a long workbook. One of the pieces is they have to do calls with at least five people to validate their idea—helping them figure out who the book is for, who it’s not for, what it will and won’t include. We also look at revenue ideas beyond the book—is there a course, program, or keynoting? Then we help them think through the publishing process and how to move forward. I started working on that because so many people were coming to me having already published, and when I asked how the book fit into their business, their answer was anything but clear. The more they validate their ideas at the beginning, get the right professional support, and write the right book for a clear audience, the better results they get. That audience is already waiting and primed for it. A lot of people write in silence or in secret. They don’t want to tell people; they don’t want people to steal their IP. I’m like, how do you even know your ideas are worth sharing if you’re worried about someone stealing your IP? You’re not already known for that. I offer “bookend” services: the very beginning before you get started, and then I can guide you to people in my network. I’m the founder of Biz Book PubHub, so we’ve got a podcast, a curated directory, networking events, a blog, and all that kind of stuff to point people in the right direction.
Brynne Tillman [13:22]: I love that. Oh my gosh, so cool. All right, let’s get back to the program now that I’ve had my own little consulting. So, you’re teaching authors to build launch teams. This is the other end of the book, right? Filled with prospects and referral partners—like I was chosen for David’s launch team. How can sales professionals structure a launch team so it deepens relationships instead of feeling transactional, like “Can I ask you a favor?” How does that favor become, “Oh my gosh, I’m so excited to be part of this,” versus one more thing on the schedule?
Robbie Samuels [14:10]: Well, it depends on how relevant the content is to the person you’re asking. Some of the hardest reviews you will ever get are from friends and family who love you but don’t understand what you do or need your content. They don’t know anyone who needs it and don’t understand the importance of a book. You’re going to have to chase them, and even if they give you a review, they won’t help you find another person to get a review from. That’s a dead end. I once had a prospect on a call who had 34 reviews. I was surprised she needed me until she said her book wasn’t performing or getting sales. I thought she was sitting on 30-some odd prospects and referral partners, so I asked how she got the reviews. She said her friends and family really came through for her. That’s the danger. This really is about relationships. To me, social selling is about relationships. Everything I do involves a process that isn’t automated; there’s a lot of hand-done stuff. I am sending hyper-personalized messages at scale. If you’ve already said yes, I’m not going to send you a reminder for the same thing. It’s guiding people through a journey. To avoid the transaction feeling, I get the right people on the team who want the information. My job is to help them follow through on their intention. These reviews matter collectively for me, but for them, it’s a small thing that gets lost. A lot of it is time-bound. I might give out advanced reader copies and give them two weeks to send in a review. I give them prompts, reminders, and hand-holding instructions. That customer service takes time. But when people follow through and get the review on Amazon, they and the author feel great. Now they’re actually rallying for the book like they’re part of a community. There’s a private training and a public launch party where it’s acknowledged that collectively we are doing this thing. People want to be part of that. You invited me here because someone asked you to write a review for a book—it seems like the weirdest thing to be excited about, but it worked.
Brynne Tillman [17:29]: That’s so funny. Yeah. But I enjoyed the experience as the person who was asked.
Robbie Samuels [17:36]: And it was relevant to you. Now, David Newman is a great case study. He has 225-plus written reviews out of about 232 ratings. Almost everyone who came to the page left a written review, which is what we aim for: reviews first. Most people—only 20 to 30%—will leave a review, even for big-name people. When he first gave me his list, it had 2,800 names. He was the example of why I needed a cap. I looked through the list and told him I could think of a dozen people who were not on it. I asked if this was just people in his database. He said yes. I said the people I’m thinking about are not in your database but are strong advocates whose books you’ve likely boosted. He then made a list of 100 people, and about 80 of them left a review. A third of his reviews came from 100 people he handpicked. I can’t handpick that list for a client, but I can guide them to think about who the right people are—podcast hosts of shows you’ve been on, collaborators, colleagues, or mastermind members. Those people understand that a book requires effort, and they have influence to sell people.
Brynne Tillman [19:40]: Yeah. Like the people that buy from me are maybe a VP of sales, but they don’t necessarily have a large influence, but the podcast host does. Wow, Robbie, that’s a mic drop right there. I want to ask you—most authors shoot for Amazon Bestseller versus reviews. Talk to me about why that is not a sustainable strategy.
Robbie Samuels [20:20]: Well, I have a new tagline: strategy over vanity. Here’s the thing. There are two questions authors ask. First, “How do I publish?” Don’t worry about it; there are lots of ways forward once you figure out the math of time versus money versus control. Once they believe the book can be published, then they say, “I’ve got to hit number one bestseller.” I’ve hit number one 37 times across four books, and not a single time did it add money to my bank account. Some people hit number one on Amazon in the US and Canada and call themselves “international bestselling authors.” Phil M. Jones wrote Exactly What to Say, which has sold a million copies in something like 17 languages. By every metric, that is an international bestselling book. What I did is impressive, but not on the same level as Phil Jones. You could sell fewer than 100 copies and hit number one in two countries. What is better than a fleeting victory like a screenshot is reviews. Reviews are social proof. Over 90% of us check reviews before buying. Reviews help people decide between books, and they help people decide whether to hire you. Everyone’s got a book. You stand out not by writing 17 books, but by having a book that is well-known and has the social proof of reviews. On the Amazon algorithm, your book will rank higher based on the quantity, quality, recency, and percentage of verified purchase reviews. Reviews from prospects and referral partners are what start conversations. I tell people to aim for 50-plus reviews, but the purpose is to engage your network because the people on your launch team need your book or know people who do. Instead of the book being a brick you stand on, imagine the brick propping open a door between you and someone who needs a conversation with you. Every time you reach out, you’re pushing that door open. That is the social relationship way of developing a conversation.
Brynne Tillman [24:18]: I just put in my book, The LinkedIn Edge, on Amazon. Organic results show one book with 543 reviews and another with 169. We have 61. Organically we’re down to number seven.
Robbie Samuels [24:49]: Just to be clear, there’s a difference between ratings and reviews. Looking at your book, you have 31 written reviews and 61 ratings. The written reviews affect the algorithm. Our human bias sees the number 61, but the algorithm knows.
Brynne Tillman [27:44]: My publisher, Wiley, said to go get reviews, but never once offered anything you talked about today. No one said to go to all your podcast people.
Robbie Samuels [28:00]: A publisher’s job is to publish your book. Some have PR or marketing upsells, but typically 1% of the books get all the marketing money. If you publish a book and immediately tell people it’s available on day one, that book has no visible success. It’s like sending people to a landing page that’s not converting. What converts? Reviews. Bestseller status can be fleeting, but people see reviews right under the title of the book. My book, Small List, Big Results: Launch a Successful Offer No Matter the Size of Your Email List, posits that our network is always bigger than our list. It’s not about selling thousands of copies to get on the USA Today list. If the purpose is to create a sales cycle, my job as a strategist is to create a pipeline from the book to the business. If someone’s falling in love with your content as they read, how do they find you, and what’s the next thing they can do with you? The bonus content I offer helps someone DIY it themselves. Even if you don’t have the budget to work with me, I want you to follow the process and get results so you become a referral partner. My ideal client is a professional speaker who has written at least one book and has a clear business plan but lacks time. David Newman told me he made over seven grand from the call to action I asked him to prepare for the launch party. He paid me less than that and made money off small dollar offers he otherwise wouldn’t have done. That happened because of the planning before the book came out.
Brynne Tillman [34:00]: You’re just fabulous. I’m blessed to have you in my network. Is there a question I should have asked that I didn’t?
Robbie Samuels [34:26]: Just help people think about the goal for the book and how to tie a strategy to that goal and avoid the noise. My advice is to hang out with other authors who have done what you’re trying to accomplish. You will learn peer-to-peer and be referred to great vendors. You don’t need to do everything. You could sell a hundred books in the first year and make $100,000 off it because of the offer. The book should help you sell your services.
Brynne Tillman [36:10]: What does “making sales social” mean to you?
Robbie Samuels [36:35]: It’s the relationship-based piece and the lack of transaction. I’m here to serve. When I’ve made it about me, that’s ego and fear. I want a relationship for life. My background is fundraising, and it’s the same thing. If it’s aligned, you’re not pushing; you’re attracting.
Brynne Tillman [38:47]: How do they get a hold of you?
Robbie Samuels [38:58]: Go to booklaunchbrainstorm.com. You’ll find my book, bonus content, launch services, and testimonials. I’m a strategist first and foremost.
Brynne Tillman [39:43]: Thank you so much. To all our listeners, please reach out to Robbie.
Outro:
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